• Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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    1 month ago

    Before, there was no access at all, as far as I know.

    Exactly.

    Which was obvious and suggests that the West had reasons beyond temporary economic benefits to accept them.

    The West saw the money to be made and thought they could still keep Chinese producers at a distance. If at all, it shows the incredible lack of long-term thinking.

    That’s the smallest risk.

    Yet again: even the US, completely dominating the globe, never managed to force every country to only buy by/sell to them. It also isn’t in the interest of these countries to be dependent on only one supplier/consumer.

    I can only say that I saw a video with a military planner about the topic and that I read it in some articles.

    And what argument made there did convince you?

    That you accept.

    Let’s get precise here: I specifically want a Europe that is independent. What specifically is it that you want?

    • plyth@feddit.org
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      1 month ago

      If at all, it shows the incredible lack of long-term thinking.

      We will see. Surprisingly they stayed ahead in all key technologies.

      It also isn’t in the interest of these countries to be dependent on only one supplier/consumer.

      There will be some room left, but much smaller than today.

      And what argument made there did convince you?

      That the nukes are not as bad as they are imagined and that nuclear war is about coming out as the strongest afterwards to dominate earth.

      I can imagine that people act with that attitude.

      Let’s get precise here:

      Do we discuss what can and will happen or what we want to happen?

      I specifically want a Europe that is independent. What specifically is it that you want?

      Icecream? It doesn’t matter what I want. It matters what is possible.

      There are no resources for Europe to master all technologies. This gives the US the leverage to use the EU to beat China.

      I want something like a humanistic post-scarcity world, but that won’t happen with free people, which I also want.

      • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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        1 month ago

        nuclear war is about coming out as the strongest afterwards to dominate earth.

        How much Earth will be left after a full-on nuclear war?

        This gives the US the leverage to use the EU to beat China.

        Which is what you don’t want? What about the other way round?

        • plyth@feddit.org
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          1 month ago

          How much Earth will be left after a full-on nuclear war?

          “According to a peer-reviewed study published in the journal Nature Food in August 2022,[20] a full-scale nuclear war between the United States and Russia, which together hold more than 90% of the world’s nuclear weapons, would kill 360 million people directly and more than 5 billion indirectly by starvation during a nuclear winter.”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

          I guess the US has enough soy beans now, and corn anyway, to survive during the first years.

          This gives the US the leverage to use the EU to beat China.

          Which is what you don’t want? What about the other way round?

          Which leverage does the EU have?

          Which other way, btw? There are several possible combinations.

          • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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            1 month ago

            “According to a peer-reviewed study published in the journal Nature Food in August 2022,[20] a full-scale nuclear war between the United States and Russia, which together hold more than 90% of the world’s nuclear weapons, would kill 360 million people directly and more than 5 billion indirectly by starvation during a nuclear winter.”

            Doesn’t really sound like a “win” to me.

            I guess the US has enough soy beans now, and corn anyway, to survive during the first years.

            You said that China could win by nuking Europe first.

            Which other way, btw? There are several possible combinations.

            China using the EU to beat the US.

            Because according to you, our only perspective is to be used by other nations.

            • plyth@feddit.org
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              1 month ago

              Because according to you, our only perspective is to be used by other nations.

              We could also try to negotiate an actual multi-polar world. But that won’t happen if we decouple from China. I can’t remember that I have said that we have to be used by China.

              • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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                1 month ago

                We could also try to negotiate an actual multi-polar world.

                If you think we are too weak to be independent, why would you think we are strong enough to enforce our will onto, i.a., China and the US?

                But again:

                Do you have the same problem with the EU helping China win against the US as you have with the EU helping the US win against China?

                • plyth@feddit.org
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                  1 month ago

                  why would you think we are strong enough to enforce our will onto, i.a., China and the US?

                  Why do we have to enforce our will?

                  Do you have the same problem with the EU helping China win against the US as you have with the EU helping the US win against China?

                  Yes. If one wins, they will rule the world according to their values.

                  With China, there is the slight hope that they actualky mean to implement a multipolar world. With the US, I have less hope that they do all this for fair global free trade without monopolies.

                  • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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                    1 month ago

                    Why do we have to enforce our will?

                    Because the others are only interested in dominating trade by power.

                    With China, there is the slight hope that they actualky mean to implement a multipolar world.

                    What do you base that assumption on?