• plyth@feddit.org
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    1 month ago

    The global decoupling/segregation trend is no invention by Trump.

    Then who is responsible?

    That’s how the market works.

    If there are not big enough banks or billionaires, that’s to be seen.

    Obviously, we won’t have free trade with a country whose economic power is based on a severe level of exploitation

    The problem is not our market but competing in others. If China has the better offer we won’t make the deals.

    Just to remember, despite not touching the ‘based’ part of the economy, we trade with Arabic oil countries and their workers, or Taiwan, the country with slave fishers.

    strategic profit for China here.

    Just what I read: US installed the microphones to track subs, USSR didn’t. Still, US got signs that USSR knew where their subs were. Turned out that subs create a wake that can be tracked, unless the start is not known. The South China sea helps, but without Taiwan, the US knows when subs arrive or leave the port.

    So we only need to bolster Taiwan to protect them from the pressure China will try to exert.

    ‘only’. So China starts invading Taiwan and Europe nukes China decisively. Which means China could win by nuking the EU first which means we need enough subs in the Pacific to retaliate.

    This is the arms race that broke the USSR because they were the smaller competitor.

    • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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      1 month ago

      Then who is responsible?

      I don’t think you’ll be able to pinpoint that to one entity, as numerous factors play into it. You have movements like Brexit in UK ‘to regain sovereignty’, you have rules in China that prohibit foreign companies to access the market unless they enter a cooperation under Chinese leadership while heavily subsidising exports, you have Trump’s Make America Great Again, … Overall, we entered an age where a reciprocal removal of trade barriers in the spirit of globalisation is replaced by each side trying to dominate trade, which will lead to more trade barriers and more market segregation.

      If there are not big enough banks or billionaires, that’s to be seen.

      The report you quoted stated that there’s more money in Europe.

      The problem is not our market but competing in others.

      I don’t see the problem. The age of European firms reaping large profits in ‘lucrative’ markets such as China is over anyway. That’s the point of segregation.

      Turned out that subs create a wake that can be tracked, unless the start is not known.

      Having subs concentrated on few spots in Eastern Taiwan will allow exactly this. Also, the only purpose of these bases would be as an advantage in a confrontation with the US. And exactly this confrontation will erupt as soon as China tries to grab these bases. So, there’ll never be a situation where the confrontation with the US starts and China has access to these bases. So, they’d need to use their current bases anyway.

      Which means China could win by nuking the EU first

      Still thinking there’s a winnable nuclear war?

      This is the arms race that broke the USSR because they were the smaller competitor.

      Economically smaller, yes. Just as China is today. Let’s see how they fare against the US on one hand and the Europe at the other. If they want the arms race, they can have it.

      • plyth@feddit.org
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        1 month ago

        Overall, we entered an age where

        The impact of Brexit on America is neglectable. China’s condition have always been like that and were even stricter. I obviously cannot proof collaboration, but to me, the support of Trump doesn’t make sense without a prior agreement on decoupling.

        The report you quoted stated that there’s more money in Europe.

        "In 2022, EU household savings were EUR 1,390 billion compared with EUR 840 billion in the US. But, despite their higher savings, EU households have considerably lower wealth than their US counterparts, largely because of the lower returns they receive from financial markets "

        There are 1135 billionaires in the US. They allone can outspend EU households.

        I don’t see the problem.

        We have to finance raw materials by selling products. If China sells better products we don’t make money. Asia, Africa, South America, those countries will not choose one side, unless they are forced.

        there’ll never be a situation where the confrontation with the US starts and China has access to these bases.

        For the same reason the EU will never be in a position where the chips are sourced reliably from Taiwan, apart from the lack of logistics and weapons.

        Still thinking there’s a winnable nuclear war?

        I think that strategists think so.

        Let’s see how they fare against the US on one hand and the Europe at the other.

        As long as EU and US are decoupled, that’s doable.

        The EU will fully submit to the US.

        • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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          1 month ago

          The impact of Brexit on America is neglectable.

          I never claimed it did. Decoupling is not a purely American phenomenon.

          China’s condition have always been like that and were even stricter.

          Not always. Since the reforms of Xiaoping. And they are a key contributing factor to what we can see now. They are a tool for China to decouple.

          Asia, Africa, South America, those countries will not choose one side, unless they are forced.

          I’d like to see China trying to force the entire world to only buy from them. Not even the US managed to do that and they are far far stronger than China.

          I think that strategists think so.

          Yet you fail to provide any reasoning for that.

          The EU will fully submit to the US.

          Yet you fail to provide any reasoning for that.

          • plyth@feddit.org
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            1 month ago

            Not always. Since the reforms of Xiaoping.

            Before, there was no access at all, as far as I know.

            And they are a key contributing factor to what we can see now. They are a tool for China to decouple.

            Which was obvious and suggests that the West had reasons beyond temporary economic benefits to accept them.

            I’d like to see China trying to force

            That’s the smallest risk. The US just bought Argentina for $40 billion.

            nuclear war - Yet you fail to provide any reasoning for that.

            I can only say that I saw a video with a military planner about the topic and that I read it in some articles.

            coupling - Yet you fail to provide any reasoning for that.

            … That you accept. If there are not the resources to have all technologies, and we decouple from China, then coupling with the USA is inevitable.

            • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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              1 month ago

              Before, there was no access at all, as far as I know.

              Exactly.

              Which was obvious and suggests that the West had reasons beyond temporary economic benefits to accept them.

              The West saw the money to be made and thought they could still keep Chinese producers at a distance. If at all, it shows the incredible lack of long-term thinking.

              That’s the smallest risk.

              Yet again: even the US, completely dominating the globe, never managed to force every country to only buy by/sell to them. It also isn’t in the interest of these countries to be dependent on only one supplier/consumer.

              I can only say that I saw a video with a military planner about the topic and that I read it in some articles.

              And what argument made there did convince you?

              That you accept.

              Let’s get precise here: I specifically want a Europe that is independent. What specifically is it that you want?

              • plyth@feddit.org
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                1 month ago

                If at all, it shows the incredible lack of long-term thinking.

                We will see. Surprisingly they stayed ahead in all key technologies.

                It also isn’t in the interest of these countries to be dependent on only one supplier/consumer.

                There will be some room left, but much smaller than today.

                And what argument made there did convince you?

                That the nukes are not as bad as they are imagined and that nuclear war is about coming out as the strongest afterwards to dominate earth.

                I can imagine that people act with that attitude.

                Let’s get precise here:

                Do we discuss what can and will happen or what we want to happen?

                I specifically want a Europe that is independent. What specifically is it that you want?

                Icecream? It doesn’t matter what I want. It matters what is possible.

                There are no resources for Europe to master all technologies. This gives the US the leverage to use the EU to beat China.

                I want something like a humanistic post-scarcity world, but that won’t happen with free people, which I also want.

                • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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                  1 month ago

                  nuclear war is about coming out as the strongest afterwards to dominate earth.

                  How much Earth will be left after a full-on nuclear war?

                  This gives the US the leverage to use the EU to beat China.

                  Which is what you don’t want? What about the other way round?

                  • plyth@feddit.org
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                    1 month ago

                    How much Earth will be left after a full-on nuclear war?

                    “According to a peer-reviewed study published in the journal Nature Food in August 2022,[20] a full-scale nuclear war between the United States and Russia, which together hold more than 90% of the world’s nuclear weapons, would kill 360 million people directly and more than 5 billion indirectly by starvation during a nuclear winter.”

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

                    I guess the US has enough soy beans now, and corn anyway, to survive during the first years.

                    This gives the US the leverage to use the EU to beat China.

                    Which is what you don’t want? What about the other way round?

                    Which leverage does the EU have?

                    Which other way, btw? There are several possible combinations.