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I literally just finished a re-watch of Lost Ark a couple minutes ago, opened Lemmy and now I see this.
When the original one was made, Nazism was so far outside the Overton window, it was the definition of something that could never be a legitimate opinion. Nazis were monsters, like ogres or something, and to be defeated by however much force it took
Not to mention all the anti-snake messaging they snuck in.
There were no nazis in the original version of Indiana Jones, those were shoehorned in by liberals as an antifascist act of terrorism.
The Sound of Music originally had friendly ICE agents harmlessly pointing friendly weapons at bystanders, but the terrorist idealist anti racist liberals changed them to nazis. Granted that the change from ICE agents to nazis may seem a small thing, but experts have all agreed that ICE agents are more fascist than nazis, thus the move was declared antifascist.
Dude’s name is @InsaneCope. Fits.
Not really shoehorned in. Nazis are part of the story. Shoehorning would be seeing nazis and saying “Nazis. I hate nazis. Though not as much as I hate Huey Long, what a wannabe Hitler that guy is!”.
Nazis. I hate Nazis.
Why do you always have to shove your far left ideology down peoples’ throats?
Sarcasm?
Me? Would I ever?
Are we playing that Whose Line game where everything must be phrased as a question?
Guess not. Suppose you’re just a giant piece of shit if you think hating nazis is a bad thing. Oh well, I gave you a chance to not protect fuck faces, but you thought a stupid joke was more important.
You know the comment you’re replying to confirmed that they were being sarcastic, right?
Sarcastically, which defeats the whole point. If sarcasm is being used as a thin shield to promote nazism, that doesn’t do anything to deny that. In fact, it only reinforces that interpretation. And I don’t give safe harbor to fascists.
Assume this person is being earnest in both comments. Notice how, when doing that, the second comment now changes to confirming that they’re being a Nazi sympathizer.
Get a brain.
I’m sorry mate but if you read anything sarcastic as earnest, it’ll mean something totally different. I just think you’re inventing an enemy here 🤷♂️
It was pretty blatant sarcasm.
Maybe next time we can ask him to spell it out in crayon for the main character in the room.
Yeah, the nazi jokes on 4chan were extremely blatant too. Too bad real nazis pointed to the sarcasm as “people saying what they actually believe, but with sarcasm as a thin shield”. And that’s how the fucking nazis came back.
There’s no such thing as blatant sarcasm. I don’t know that person, do you? The sarcasm in their comment is rooted in THE JUXTAPOSITION BETWEEN WHO THEY ARE AND THEIR JOKING POSITION. If you don’t know who they are, how the fuck do you know they aren’t being sincere? Or, stated another way, how do you stop someone from misinterpreting who they are?
I’ve tried reminding people to use the sarcasm tag, people get mad that I’m ruining jokes. I try asking if it’s sarcasm, usually works to defuse and resolve the issue, but then you get people who dig in their heels.
Lemmy is still small, we are extremely vulnerable to take over by reactionaries. I’m doing my part as a good citizen to stop assholes from incurring here. I’m sorry if that makes me seem like the fun police or someone who doesn’t understand comedy (which, like, shouldn’t be an offending position).
And yeah, I went too big here, but it’s so frustrating when no one cares about it or takes it seriously. I like this place and I don’t want it be taken over by terrible people.
Bringing my own snark back in line here for some actual discussion, throwing out a different perspective as food for thought.
The line he’s using has been pretty memed so that’s why I said blatant. A quick scroll through history showed some shots taken towards conservatives and maga and not really anything supporting far right.
Being hostile to people who don’t see the point of adding sarcasm tags isn’t so much helpful as making it an unpleasant place to be in, and adding “I gave you a chance” when you’re also some shmuck on the internet like the rest of us comes across incredibly condescending. Especially when it’s not exactly a “rule” on the internet to tag your content with a sarcasm tag. Even if the intent is good, it’s just digging the hole deeper. It’s not just the other guy who sees it, it’s everyone else.
Some people respond well to being asked, few if any respond well to being told to do things by randoms, especially if followed by hostility. If your goal is for someone to change what they’re doing you have to consider how they will interpret you asking. Some people will double down but how that’s responded to also contributes to how other people will react when asked in future.
Lemmy is small but also does itself no favours by being incredibly hostile to new users (in particular people who come from Reddit, which drives me nuts as Lemmy seems to function as a Reddit alternative by all outside appearances). That’s anecdotal but I see it all the time here. In the same vein I also see a lot of calls for violence.
We’re vulnerable to being taken over by reactionaries but going overboard on random people for memes is just going to drive normal people out and keep the reactionaries in. It just seems to be an issue that’s compounding and I don’t really have a good solution, we’re living in fucked up times
Sarcasm?
No, why would I be sarcastic about thinking that someone who thinks nazis aren’t bad is a bad person? Is that something you think should be normalized?
Mind you, if they are being sarcastic then they think it’s better to give safe harbor to nazi sympathizers than to ruin a joke, and that’s kind of pathetic if you think about it.
Autism?
Why did it have to be Nazis?
I like Ike. (Shame about that ones source There’s like a skull shaped void in my Brian between movie 3 and 5.)
Poor Brian. I hope he gets his void filled to his liking.
idk what you are talking about.
there are only 3 movies afaik.
The last one wasn’t that bad to be fair. Certainly wasn’t anywhere near as bad as Crystal Skull with it’s fucking monkey scene…
The time travel one? You’re absolutely joking, that was so trashy. But yes, somehow still better than Crystal Skull, which I only remember for the interdimensional aliens
I admit the first 20 minutes looks like a Naughty Dog Indiana Jones game, but as a last outing, I’ll take it. I expected dogshit and just got slightly out-of-date cake.
It’s more than John McClane got…
Woof, that’s a bit unfair though, Bruce Willis has, by all accounts, had some horrific cognitive decline for like over a decade. But yeah wasn’t totally dogshit, the kids liked it, and I liked it more than super kitties or whatever trash they’re into r/n 🤣.
One of favorite lines in the show Chuck from the 00s. A character has amnesia and is being reeducated on classic films. This character had, for reasons I can’t recall, pissed off the person teaching him his cultural history and so was being told to watch only the BAD films in each franchise.
Anyway, at the resolution of this episode his media teacher forgives him and gives him the box set of Indiana Jones.
When asked “You’re not hiding the good ones are you?”
His teacher becomes stone serious and responds. “There are only three.”
I only watched it once, but It’s forever burned Into my brain.
Same with star wars. Only 3 and that one about the ewoks afaik.
Is this not satire? The account is literally called “Insane Cope”
I hate how the Internet ruined satire. At one point you could read something and think “well that’s obviously too stupid for a literate human to believe. What a clever way of pointing out the folly of man”. Now you read a moronic opinion and it’s like 60% likely to be real.
Sounds like the edited for tv version but for Republicans.
“The following movie has been edited for Nexstar & Sinclair broadcast networks.”
“Nazis, I [different voice] respect political differences”
Alternatively, “Nazis, I [deb]ate nazis”
Honestly that wouldn’t fucking surprise me at this point.
Taking bets how long until we get a “USA version” of movies like they do in China.
You already do. It’s a defoult one. You don’t need edits in postproduction. Self-ceneorship occurese before even the first scene is shot.
Obvious example would be the assistance of the US army in making a movie, if the script was approved by Pentagon. But I bet you wouldn’t have to look far for more.
I’ll admit that, much as you’re right, it takes even me (not American, painfully aware and annoyed by US propaganda) seeing it in the context of something else for it to be weird.
Like, nothing worse in The Wandering Earth or the Three Body Problem than in, say, Transformers, but it jumps at me more, which is messed up, because it means that it works even when you know it’s there.
Right, cause every movie is filmed in America…
“Foreign Films” as the Americans put it are far more interesting than the mainstream slop the US shits out.
I love a lot of films from outside the US but this comment is a weird and largely inaccurate generalization
Cute that you felt the need to defend one of the biggest pedo industries next to religion.
Oh no a hyperbolic comment on the putrid slop being drizzled out from Americas creative cloaca, better pull myself up by my bootstraps and defend this toxic industry.
Oh no a fucking idiot
That idiot doesn’t fuck.
Look at that gleaming gem of creativity shat out by the American. Such an original thought. That must have taken a whole writing team and bags of coke to get that masterpiece done.
Bet you’re the type of that says Jesus Christ unironically. 😂
Blocking your lukewarm bowl of porridge now 😘
The Taxi movie in France was awesome. The Taxi movie remake in USA was awful. A bigger budget and star power definitely doesn’t translate to better movies.
What’s the one where the main bad guys are like a tribal iungle death cult? Temple of Doom? I don’t remember nazis in that one; maybe that’s all they saw.
Temple of Doom gets a lot of criticism for being racially insensitive, but it’s actually my favorite in the series because it highlights religious extremism and fascistic devotion to leaders/idols/deities of a religion that isn’t the religion held by the majority of the series’ audience (Christianity), and that subtly recontextualizes how the Nazis of the other movies were religious extremists with fascistic devotion to leaders/idols/deities that the average Christian viewer may not recognize as a derivative of their own religious views.
On a sidenote, what a lot of people see as racially insensitive in Temple of Doom almost exclusively applies to the villainous Thuggee cult and not to the Indian villagers. There is a bit of a “white savior” trope, but you could argue that Indy was well-fed enough to fight and reputable enough to get into Pankot Palace, unlike the famished villagers.
it highlights religious extremism and fascistic devotion to leaders/idols/deities of a religion that isn’t the religion held by the majority of the series’ audience (Christianity)
The Road to El Dorado is one of my favorite movies for basically the same reason.
I recently watched that one with my kids and holy crap it does such a good job of correctly contextualizing the conquistadors as savage villains (and also holy shit it’s hilarious)
I don’t really care for the racial insensitivity (it was the 80s, and there’s a lot worse than that out there).
But Willie Scott has got to be the most annoying character in the entire franchise.
that movie isn’t perfect, and it still annoys me that they portrayed as the good guys. because when Western nations conquer and plunder other nations is only bad if they are nazis.
That’s… a lot of arguing for not much payoff.
I mean, it doesn’t hold up any way you look at it, because the really weird dinner scene is supposed to be populated by a bunch of people who think what’s going on is normal. The only cultists are supposed to be the minister and the brainwashed prince. Even Indy isn’t particularly fazed. The one thing I’ll give you is that is the one film where the magical religious artifact is not Christian, so it’s the one movie that tells you that Jesus/Moses aren’t the only magic people roaming the Earth in that universe. Unfortunately it does so by depicting its exception as this gross, horrific cultish thing, which they never do with Judeochristian tradition even when they’re melting faces using it.
But mostly, politics aside… it’s just a mess of a movie. It’s made out of deleted sequences and scraps from Raiders, it’s one of the weird Spielberg divorce rebound movies, so the female lead is atrociously written, there’s no discernible plot and no discernible theme when compared to Raiders.
It has some really cool imagery, inventive set pieces and is charming in bits, but it’s the worst of the original trilogy by a lot.
The group being grotesque and alien to the audience is critical to what I like about it, because it holds a mirror up to the audience but the audience thinks of themselves as so distinct from the people of another culture and another part of the world that they don’t see the parallel. The Nazis’ practices were themselves a form of horrific ritual tradition performed by an extremist cult hellbent on consuming outsiders for what they thought was a sacred purpose, much like the Thuggees. An important datapoint that people might not know is that the Nazis were almost entirely Christian, and the villains in the movies showed their religious convictions via their pursuit of the artifacts. In Temple of Doom and in the other movies, the villains are driven by the religious practices and pursuits of a particular religious sect that is an extremist bastardization of the normal values and practices of the respective religion.
I had understood everyone at the dinner scene to have already been brainwashed into the cult (except for maybe the child Maharaja) and posing as relatively normal for their guests. Indy and the British guy in attendance likely held stoic expressions to maintain good standings with their hosts. The British guy does briefly swipe away a snake and doesn’t seem to ever eat any of the food. Additionally, I have genuinely seen monkey brain on the menu of a Korean BBQ restaurant before (screenshot attached).
I understood the theme of the movie to be a retort against cynicism and a catharsis for Spielberg following his divorce. Willie and Indy are both in it for themselves at the beginning (ex. Willie wanting to marry the Maharaja for his wealth prior to meeting him, Willie pursuing the diamond rather than Indy’s antidote, Indy seeing Short Round as a utility rather than as a friend or son-like figure, both Willie and Indy referencing their sexual desires and assets throughout) and heartlessness is symbolized by a literal heart removal and becoming a cruel automaton. Willie being horribly written is meant to be a foil to Indy’s same self-serving nature at this time in his life, only without his charisma and the audience’s familiarity. Short Round’s childlike selflessness and devotion to Indy and Willie as a faux parental couple (tying in with Spielberg’s split at the time) is what ultimately saves them and teaches them that “fortune and glory” is less important than nourishing a community and watching out for each other. Indy discarding the other Sankara Stones at the end of the bridge scene represents throwing away treasures which only have a selfish monetary value rather than a value that can help others. The plot on its surface is “get the MacGuffin because it’s treasure”, but Indy learns what he should actually be doing is “get the MacGuffin to help these people”.
Man, I just don’t see the need to justify or whitewash a movie just because you like it. I mean, I love Die Hard, but it’s a deeply misogynistic movie. That’s what it’s about. I can live with that. Back to the Future is pure Reagan era US exceptionalist nostalgia. That’s cool, I can live with that. Still a perfect movie, though. Don’t need to agree with it politically for it to be one.
And likewise I don’t particularly need to do mental gymnastics to justify the casual racism of a fun-but-not-great 80s classic.
FWIW, I’m pretty sure the profound implication in Doom is that the Maharaja is the only person on that table that is brainwashed. He’s the only one you get being reset on screen. He’s out there being all Voodoo doll evil and then gets healed by Short Round and gets over it. As far as we know, or the movie implies, everybody else there is either a true believer or oblivious to what’s going on below.
It’s not like the movie goes out of its way to go back to the fat, lip-smacking guy to show him going “wow, I was in so deep they made me eat live snakes from inside the belly of another snake”. He’s there to show that this stuff is normal, explicitly. The point is that the movie tells you foreign food is gross and kinda barbaric, but Indy is cultured enough to be all elevated about it in polite company (but will sneak out to get an apple later because he’s also a rogue who’s just like you). At most it contrasts with the poor people food they get offered earlier, except that was also shown to be mostly gross and unappealing. And all of that is just another spin on the gross bug thing later. You don’t need to overthink it, it’s a fairly straightforward bit.
Ditto for the selflessness theme. I mean, it’s there, for sure, but not for Indy. One of the weirder bits of this thing is that it’s technically a prequel, but Indy comes to the town and immediately is the high ground guy who wants to help and get the kids back because he’s already such a dad to Short Round and treats him like an equal. Willie is the one who’s an asshole about it and may or may not have learned a lesson from watching Indy be a perfect hero. The only time the movie shows them as being equally flawed is the one sequence where they’re both equally horny for each other but too stubborn to initiate things. And even then the moment there’s danger Indy is all business and ignores Willie while she’s there going “no, fondle MY boobs” for a joke.
Which doesn’t gel at all with Raiders Indy coming after, where he is some douche who used to date an underage girl, makes a living raiding tombs despite not always being the best at it, is willing to leave his girlfriend to be tortured by nazis for the sake of getting treasure and is generally 100% into it for the whole “fortune and glory” thing. The entire movie is about him learning humility and respect and accepting that there are things that aren’t for him to see or keep. Which is nuts, because he seems to be super into that in Doom out of the gate.
None of which matters, because Doom is mostly about repurposing cool set pieces they couldn’t ge to in the first one. Which was fine, but doesn’t make for as much of an all-timer, fully rounded out film as Raiders or such a sleek all ages action film as Crusade. It is what it is.
Why do you think Die Hard is deeply misogynistic?
Holy shit, do you not?
It’s a movie about a tough, old fashioned street smart cop who feels deeply emasculated about his wife having a good job and an independent life and the entire movie contrives a scenario where the tough conservative cop gets to be the hero among foppish, coke-addled LA yuppies, kill the Eurotrash villain and take his wife home wrapped in a blanket for a family Christmas dinner.
The final symbol of setting things right is unbuckling the watch she had gotten as a token of the company’s trust in her. It’s… they’re not even shy about it. That’s what the whole movie is about.
I mean, I’m far from the first to point this out, but in the original book Hollie is his daughter. Not that the book is progressive, but the movie is so patriarchal they swapped the daughter role for a wife role so they could shave twenty years off the lead actor and kept the rest of it just fine. Daddy knows best. Yippie ki-yay, feminazis.
You think the message is women shouldn’t have careers?
John MacLane has traditional male attributes like strength, perseverance, etc., sure, and he loves the family life he lost. Otherwise he didn’t strike me as particularly conservative. Over the course of the movie he reflects on his failing regarding the marriage and his wife. Yes, he has a crisis of his self worth as a man as you point out.
John McLane is a huge contrast to traditional 1980s action heroes. He is vulnerable, sobs, talks about his fears, suffers, doesn’t have huge muscles like Stallone or Schwarzenegger but more of an average build. John doesn’t win through physical domination, but by working with his friends, using his wits and creativity, and not giving up. He is often desperate, mostly running and hiding, not in control at all.
I interpreted this whole story as an example of how capitalist work realities break up and alienate families. Holly has to be at a work party on Christmas instead of spending time with her family. Her expensive watch is a symbol for this bondage to her career and employer.
The corporate bosses and the terrorists only care about money, power, and profit, while MacLane cares about family, love, and justice.
As an aside let’s remember the two wholesome black friends that support MacLane throughout. The bad guys are evil foreigners, America‘s old enemies, German and Japanese.
Functioning loving families are a good thing.
You say all of that, but all three of those movies were great.
Yeah death cult was temple of Doom. Nazis was lost Ark
Last Crusade was also Nazis.
Dial of Destiny too. Which was…okay in the first half but went crazy in the second…
