• алсааас [she/they]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      23 days ago

      The thing is, states are tools for one class to oppress another. So as long as global capitalism (and thus capitalist encirclement) exist, abolishing the state is inviting defeat before the battle even started…

      But I do 100% agree that there can be no communism while we still have states. It’s just that once capitalism has been destroyed, the state as a tool of class oppression will cease to have any legitimation.

      (And yes, I do think that liquidating capitalists as a class and keeping them from reemerging is a good and necessary thing (ie. “class oppression”). Just from the side of the working people oppressing capitalists and this is BTW what Marxists mean when talking about the DOTP (Dictatorship of the Proletariat))

      • BlackRoseAmongThorns@slrpnk.net
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        11 days ago

        This would be using the master’s tools to break the master’s house, and then expecting the master’s tools to self destruct.

        The state is a hierarchically built, tool for one class to opress another, seizing it won’t work for several reasons but the most likely one is that the state, as a structure (even in the abstract sense), is self preserving, thus cannot be appropriated for self destructive ends, the state will always tend to favor an oppressive class that will keep the hierarchy intact, or even recreate hierarchy inducing tendencies.

        I’ll try to be more specific and less theoretical, to seize the state means being part of it, to be part of it is using its tools, solutions, and ideology, that’s to say that facing an issue, a person who works for the government, will have to use the tools the state uses like concentration of power, military and the police, apply its solutions like propaganda, cracking down on dissent and surveillance, and adopt its ideologies like patriotism, tyranny and elitism.

        That same individual cannot help build communism as they would embody the old world’s tendencies and ruling class, and the worker class wouldn’t be able to build communism for a lack of experience in what communism requires, as in a strong community building values, conflict resolution skills, and honestly so much more than i can think of myself.

        Anyway excuse the long and late reply, also i am willing to say more but for a 2 week old comment this is getting long enough and might be considered rude already, have a nice day.

        • алсааас [she/they]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          11 days ago

          I don’t think it’s rude and I appreciate a good faith discussion.

          Although I think there has been a misunderstanding, it never was about seizing or appropriating the bourgeois state and it’s bureaucracy, which brings with it all the problems you mentioned (which in turn is why Marxists despise reformists BTW, because they believe they can magically wrestle control of the bourgeois state apparatus and peacuflly convince the ruling class of socialism).
          It’s about destroying it and then – as a necessity against global capitalism encirclement – building a proletarian state to resist and oppress the bourgeoisie.
          Marxism has the global POV of wiping capitalism off the face of the earth, and thus is willing to use the necessary means to achieve that end.

          I agree that one must be cautious when building a worker’s state, one must learn from history to prevent the same mistakes as made in the past (though a lot of them arose from historical conditions), which is why I find the analyses of “degenerated/deformed workers state” to be vital.

          I must apologise that I don’t have the necessary energy to continue this discussion further, but I believe ComradeSharkfucker made a good comment in this thread regarding the topic.

    • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.ml
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      23 days ago

      You aren’t a communist (of the Marxian variety) if you don’t believe a proletarian state is necessary to secure the revolution from the inevitable bouregois counter revolution. The main disagreement with anarchist that communist have is the belief that the state can be done away with outright through shear will. So long as class conflict exists a state arise whether we like it or not. Even major anarchist projects have had some aspect of a state because a state is a phenomena that arises from the material conditions of class conflict not something we invent. I would rather the working class control that state until it becomes unnecessary and whithers away than try to create a stateless, classless, moneyless society while surrounded by the forces of capital that would see me killed for this desire.

    • Cruxifux@feddit.nl
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      23 days ago

      Yeah exactly. I am one of those kinds of communists. Not all communists truly understand this though. The issue is that not all anarchists are realistic about how to do it, timeframe, and the need to defend yourselves from capitalists while trying to achieve this. But that’s just my opinion, and where the real schism between communists and anarchists tends to come from. I personally have zero problem working together with anarchists. Same goal, and fuck capitalism.

    • BigPotato@lemmy.world
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      23 days ago

      I mean, communism is a structure of government and rules. Anarchy is… Not?

      I mean, I’m fine with them in reality (better than capitalists, no doubt) but how do you square the circle that “your watch is yours” when you don’t buy anything and resources are finite? Doesn’t matter if the people own the means, if the watch factory can only pump out 50 watches a day and 100 people want the watch, half of them don’t get it. Like, I know the reality is they’ll make another 50 tomorrow, so you’ll have suckers like me thinking “Well, I can wait until tomorrow. Let another person get their watch today,” but what if I’m the only one to think that?

      I dunno, feels like differentiating between folk punk and anti-folk.

      • Cruxifux@feddit.nl
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        23 days ago

        Both ideologies goals are a moneyless, classless society, and eventual dissolving of a state government. They just disagree on how to get there, which is a huge oversimplification. But not as big as an oversimplification as what you just described. I think you should try reading the literature on it dude.

      • AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net
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        23 days ago

        Whilst many anarchists are in favour of abolishing private property, that’s not the same as abolishing personal property. I’ve seen a few different definitions of those two terms, but one of the simpler ways to think about it is that private property tends to be the “capital” part of capitalism.

        In your watch example, if there were more people wanting a watch than watches being made, then it might make sense to first ask who has need of a new watch, and who simply wants one. There’s no reason why people who want a new watch can’t have one — they might just have to wait a bit longer. Perhaps another answer might be to ask whether you have any skills or tools that would be useful in making more watches, if they are in high demand. Even if not, there would likely be things you could do to help out the people making watches that could help them to boost capacity — helping out with some of their domestic labour, for example. I don’t see this as being a scenario where you directly trade your labour for a watch, but rather helping to fill a niche in your community (though I do think that it would be reasonable to expect that helping out would lead to you getting a watch quicker than you wanted). That’s just my take on this hypothetical though, and I’m just one anarchist.

        Though it’s important to clarify that whilst a communist system would be more structured than an anarchist one, anarchism doesn’t involve a complete lack of rules or structures. I think that one of the reasons why this misconception is so common is because anarchism, as an ideology or political philosophy, is far more diverse and scattered than communist theory, but the development of the theory is distinct from what the development of society under that theory would look like. For instance, if we were ever at a point where we were operating under anarchism, I’d imagine that the intellectual tradition of anarchism would look quite different to what it does now — I imagine there’d be a lot of consolidation of ideas, for example.

        But if you were right and you were the only person who was willing to wait until tomorrow, then all that would mean is that we’d have to figure out how to manage the demand. I don’t see that as being a problem really, and more just an innate facet of life, because as you highlight, there’s always going to be times when the available resources are less than the demand. A real world example that is coming to mind is a local housing co-op near me that’s always got more interest than availability. They have rules about what is required for someone to get a place on the waiting list, as well as guidelines that they use to prioritise people within that waiting list. To me, this is a small slice of what anarchism could look like in practice, in this particular context — whilst they obviously are beholden to the law, the actual rules that make up the bulk of their governance are decided on and managed by the co-op.

        Though for what it’s worth, if you did hold off on getting a watch out of consideration for others who wanted one, I wouldn’t call that being a sucker — I’d call it being a good citizen. For me, anarchism is about asking the question of “okay, what would it take for there to be more people who are able and willing to be a good citizen?”. We’re so far away from that level that it’s hard to imagine what an anarchist world could look like, but I don’t have a problem with that when there are so many examples of regular, everyday anarchism that is already working well that I can try to understand and work towards in different contexts

        • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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          23 days ago

          Great examples. I grew up in a coop, so that life way really resonates with me. I also feel like actually existing anarchism will be just as different from “on paper” communism or capitalism are from their real world instantiations (that’s not to sound pessimistic, but just that it’ll probably be different).

          There’s also the question of what “large scale” anarchism (if that even makes sense) will look like. My opinion is that the daily experience of anarchism will be similar to existing in a coop, and anything at a higher level of collaboration will be some new type of social structure that will rise out of the anarchism practiced at the more human/local levels.

          (It could also just be that I lack the boldness of imagination to picture anything too far out of my experience.)p

          Sorry if I’m talking past you at all. I kind of read your comment in little bitty breaks over a four hour shift, and just getting around to commenting now. :)

          • AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net
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            23 days ago

            You’re not talking past me at all; I really appreciate your points.

            In particular, I find the question of large scale anarchism interesting also. This will seem slightly tangenty, but bear with me: I find myself reminded of how there are people who criticise groups who call themselves “Queers for Palestine” by arguing that the people who use this slogan would face significantly more oppression in Palestine than in America. That may or may not be true, but I don’t care about that because regardless of the current state of LGBTQ rights in Palestine, it is obvious that being subject to a genocide would put a damper on Palestinians who would be pushing for queer liberation.

            Even if Palestine were free, I still wouldn’t have much understanding or context to predict what the pathway towards LGBTQ liberation in Palestine would look like, because it would be ignorant to assume that things would take the same path and reach the same endpoint as queer liberation in the US (and given that that battle isn’t going to great over here, it seems good that we wouldn’t be serving as a direct template for activism and progress in other places of the world). I don’t need to know any of this to advocate for people’s freedom and self determination though.That’s the sweet thing about solidarity — it implicity is a thing that occurs between people who you recognise as being like you in some way (such as through shared plight, or through basic personhood), but are different. There’s a sense in surrendering to not knowing the other person, but trusting them to know themselves, and to work together to negotiate a common good.

            It’s pretty freeing actually, because it means that I don’t need to know how to fix the entire world — I can mostly focus on the parts that I know and can meaningfully affect, because that’s part of my duty to the world. I do also need to pay some attention to the wider world beyond that which I know, but for that, I mainly need to listen to and work to understand the concerns of people embedded within communities other than my own. If some people are deprived of the opportunity to speak or to build communities then I need to do what I can to fight for their freedom. But beyond that, my duty to the world mostly just involves a lot of listening and waiting to see other people will do.

            At risk of muddying things up further with a poorly developed analogy, I think that biology can be a good way to imagine complex organisation. Like, to what extent does a liver cell need to know how the brain is organised? I reckon less so than it would need to understand the arrangement of its fellow hepatocytes within the same tissue. A red blood cell probably wouldn’t need to understand how a nucleus works, just that most cells have one that they store their DNA in, but red blood cells don’t. It certainly wouldn’t need to know about weird mechanistic stuff like nucleoporins (proteins embedded in the nucleus). Anything info that’s important can be communicated by hormones, or nerve signals, or stuff embedded in a cells outer membrane (like antigens).

            I am more tired than I realised, so that got pretty rambly. I hope you get the vibes I’m trying to convey. As thanks for your patience, enjoy this [TL;DR in a meme format] (https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/1a1c7042-d583-464b-8d25-af9e36b57c21.jpeg)

            • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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              22 days ago

              Omg I love it, thank you.

              I think your message came across well: we don’t need to know every part of a system for it to be a good and working system.

              Actually, it would be ridiculous to expect a plan to come fully formed, ready to be rolled out and implemented as-is. I’m sure there will need to be learnings and adaptations along the way, in collaboration with the many different people implementing anarchism.

      • BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world
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        23 days ago

        If the state does not wither away and instead grows into a dense jungle, you have rolled a 1 on your communism check.

      • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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        16 days ago

        who says anarchy isn’t a structure of rules? anarchy doesn’t mean no rules, it means no rulers.

        i would argue you can only have anarchy with a robust set of rules, those rules would just look very very different to anything we have today.