Generated via https://github.com/ublue-os/countme
10k added users since last post. Here are upstream Fedora numbers only
I am a container evangelist, I find excuses to convert my jobs into Kubernetes workloads, and I frequently use the likes of podman for one off apps/processes and development. I use Flatpak frequently to isolate dependencies for the likes of Steam and Heroic.
I really wanted to like Bazzite or Bluefin, but I can’t deal with the overhead from the rpm os-tree updates. I would frequently notice hitches for my use case (sunshine streaming), and the hoops I had to do to configure Nvidia drivers (for it to then not work as good as other distros) was tiresome.
I went back to Arch (EndeavourOS), and I improved sunshine performance and had a driver that worked with less fiddling.
I’m saying all this because, while I’m glad to see any Linux distro grow, I hope it starts delivering what it says on the tin eventually without compromises that I experienced. Markering on it being immutable and container focused is true, but I dont see the benefit (aside from more stability which as others pointed out, is already stable is most cases)?. Right now, its a simple to configure (assuming most defaults work for your setup) distro that is finding a growing niche amongst some users (obviously by the data shown). And thats good enough for now at least.
The removal of KDE Discover has me considering going back to plain Kinoite on my HTPC. I figure I can build a sysext with the handful of bazzite bits I actually use and keep the unbutchered plasma experience
Would you be willing to say more about what you know / experienced about the removal of Discover? Preferences included? I only noticed it recently, been away from things for a bit, and you sound like your brief info would probably be at least as fruitful as the reading I was gonna look for :)
the ublue project / bazzite decided to make their own flatpak first app store called Bazaar. Fair enough its their distro. However they created it with GTK4/Adwaita libraries, so its a Gnome native app and looks completely ugly on a KDE Plasma desktop. Also as a flatpak first app store it doesn’t update anything else on your machine like what discover is capable of (cant update ostree, knew stuff etc). This means you have to use the ujust terminal app to access updates, which I dont agree with.
I think technically you could layer it back in with rpm-ostree install kdediscover - however this pulls back a couple of hundred meg of plasma dependencies, which if you’re not aware, when you update your system would be redownloaded and reinstalled with each new ostree snapshot, slowing down the update process even further. I I tried doing it as a sysext (myrepo) but it keeps segfaulting and I havent worked out the issue. Sysexts are new experienmental alternative to package layering which hold a lot of potential (check out tim ravier’s development of them here https://travier.github.io/fedora-sysexts/)
You don’t use the terminal to do updates, updates are automatic by default.
We also completely removed discovers ability to update OSTree. It’s never been present in a single build of Bazzite.
This is why I don’t pay attention to people that complain about toolkits. You don’t like the way it looks so you make up absolutely disingenuous points to argue about it.
There’s a toggle for the store in ujust
Only on Aurora, we don’t ship that.
Ah ok
I couldnt see one - I also dont want to layer it, because it will pull in a couple of hundred megs of kde dependencies every time you update. I tried doing it as a sysext (myrepo) but it keeps segfaulting and I havent worked out the issue
Sysexts are something I’ve been meaning to get in to. Have you had much success in general with them?
I had been using Aurora-dx, but I also like to play games, so I re-based to Bazzite-dx when it became available.
Lots of shit-talking Bazzite…
I don’t game much but when I do it’s on Fedora.
What distro do you all recommend for my Windows buddy looking to switch to gaming on Linux?
CachyOS might be the easiest one that gives you something decent. It’s basically an Arch Linux with slightly better compiler optimizations and tweaked kernels. Also a tweaked version of proton in the core repos.
Started by a German dude so EU++ or something. And of course it’s based on Arch Linux, which was started by a Canadian dude.
It’s on top of distrowatch too, but I have no idea what that implies.
Easy installer too.
Bazzite is the option for Windows converts that want a gaming focused Linux desktop. A lot of people are going to nitpick it to death, because they want “Literally Windows but without Microsoft”. Which isn’t happening while Linux has the market share it has. You either accept a few annoyances (while advocating for those annoyances to be fixed), or go back to Windows and accept Microsoft’s authoritarian control of your computer.
Bazzite is a solid desktop that’s going to be really hard for a regular user to break, comes with Steam, Lutris, and Heroic built in, proprietary nvidia drivers installed, and is based on Fedora (Modern, stable, well supported).
The only downside is KDE can be really easy to break if you’re a new user unfamiliar with how customizing it works, but if you leave it default you’re fine.
Just in the name of completeness, I wouldn’t say that’s the only downside. I definitely have some stability issues with Bazzite, only when gaming though. But game crashes, occasional OS crashes, that hasn’t been exactly rare for me. But I will say, gaming is about the one thing in my life I’m almost unwilling to troubleshoot these days. Could be something specific to my setup that is uncommon for others, making my data point unhelpful.
And by and large, I’d absolutely recommend it for any Windows user who wants an easily transferable user experience and broadly fantastic gaming support with minimal fuss.
People just don’t like it because it’s different and uses new tech
PopOS/Cosmis has native Nvidia support, works perfectly out of the box
Manjaro is the closest thing to Windows you’re going to get.
I recommend it with KDE.
Manjaro has also DDoS’d the AUR several times and is known for not keeping their certs up to date.
Say no to manjaro https://github.com/arindas/manjarno
Nice automated response. Pretty sure that hasn’t been an issue for years.
Linux Mint’s website was hacked and they served a malicious ISO, but the useful idiot crowd never talks about that.
The snowball effect is real, and if you can’t see it then you’re probably a part of it.
The main reason why people hate on Manjaro is because it makes it easy to use a historically complicated distro. Anyone rational person who has been in the free software ecosystem for a substantial period of time will recognize that there are many morons, elitists, and losers who like to make things more complicated than they need to be to feel superior to others.
Also, people don’t like when another distro is better than theirs, which Manjaro is for the vast majority of rational users.
No one hates endeavouros yet it makes arch Linux easy to use. I don’t see why endevouros isn’t the better choice over manjaro.
Because it sucks? 🙃
Like, seriously, Manjaro had so many problems already that were completely preventable, makes stupid mistakes, bloats itself up with nonsense and provides no stability improvement over Arch whatsoever (which is a bad thing). On the contrary, it apparently even introduces additional bugs.
I’m not surprised they accidentally DDoS’ed the AUR, given they also have a docker script that spins up every single time an image is downloaded to push a change to git to increment a counter. Every. Single. Time. A full docker container. From scratch.
I’d only ever recommend Manjaro to people I really don’t like.
You’re doing a good job fitting in with your peers.
Mission accomplished.
I will hypothesize why:
Bazzite is the Trendy Distro Of The Month, like Peppermint or Endeavor or Nobara or a frillion others. CachyOS is apparently next. Nearly constantly, you’ll hear about some trendy new distro which is a fork of Ubuntu or Fedora or Arch that has a feature or two targeted at newcomers or gamers, and for awhile it gets heavily recommended on Reddit or Lemmy, then you stop hearing about it forever as the rest of the ecosystem adopts that feature or fixes the thing that feature was meant to be worked around, and then the cycle repeats.
Bazzite is targeted toward gamers, it emphasizes a solid onboarding experience with a configurator to choose/build your install media based on what you want to do with it, do you want a handheld or home theater experience or a keyboard and mouse desktop? Do you want it to boot to SteamOS or to a DE? Which DE? What hardware do you have? So their gimmick is to steer users through the initital config and setup process. Which as gimmicks go, that one is pretty solid.
MEANWHILE
Fedora’s Atomic editions have no gimmicks at all. You have to independently learn that immutable distros exist, independently decide you want that, and then go hunting on their website through their godforsaken marketing wank to find it.
Fedora likes their bullshit branding. You go to their website, and there are big buttons for Fedora Workstation right next to Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop. “Workstation” does not mention that it’s just the Gnome version. You have to stroll further down, past server, IoT and “Core” versions, to a section that looks visually different labeled “More Fedora Options” including Atomic and Spins. You’re a new Linux user, you’ve just used the OS that came with your computer your whole life, explain to me what the difference between Core and Atomic is and why you should choose one over the other?
The Atomic versions, which is kind of a synonym for “immutable”, you click on that, and you’re presented with five options: Fedora Silverblue, Fedora Kinoite, Fedora Sway Atomic, Fedora Budgie Atomic, and Fedora Cosmic Atomic Nowhere in its name or description does Silverblue mention that it’s the Gnome desktop one. Kinoite starts with a K and also mentions in the description it’s the KDE atomic version. Also, “kinoite” is a godawful word, they should have gone with Kyanite instead, which is a different blue crystal. Or they should have just called it KDE Atomic or Plasma Atomic. The others just put the DE’s name in the title LIKE A NORMAL PERSON, ROWAN.
That’s a really dismissive way to say “It’s an OS built to fit a demand that wasn’t being met by the other distros”.
I am wary about invoking Apple here, but say what you will about the company, there’s a lot of value in a braindead setup process. Many, many users just want something that just works - it was literally something I asked for when Linux was recommended to me (knowing some hate Ubuntu, I’ll out myself: using Ubuntu Budgie - setup was super simple. I guess there must be demand for that niche in the broader Linux community, so that’s a very smart move by Bazzite.
CachyOS is apparently next.
I’d argue that this is already the current trend. I can’t count the number of random Indian youtubers I recently got recommended to watch as they glaze CachyOS as the second coming of christ.
Bazzite is not growing because it’s immutable.
Angry upvote.
They all are
But “being immutable” is not why Bazzite is growing.
?
Bazzite’s growth is not because it is immutable, Bazzite’s growth is because it offers gamers a straightforward onboarding process.
It offers a straightforward onboarding process because it’s image based. The model is part of the success.
The upward trend is not because Bazzite is immutable.
I disagree with you fundamentally, if it wasn’t for the simple updates and stability this would not have the success that it does. The image is part of the model.
lol you’re confusing me, bazzite isn’t immutable. Do you mean to say “Bazzite is growing for other reasons?”
Wut? You’re responding to a trend graph for Fedora’s immutable (Atomic) forks.
Built on Fedora’s rpm-ostree system, Bazzite uses an immutable design with atomic updates and rollback functionality.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite_(operating_system)
But yes, since the trend chart is showing immutable distros and how Bazzite is growing, I am saying the fact that Bazzite is immutable has nothing to do with it’s growth.
Edit: Reading again, I realize you might not know that Fedora Atomic is the immutable base. 😉
The Bazzite team doesn’t control the wikipedia page, just the official documentation. Someone made up the term “immutable design”, that’s not a thing it’s just a container. There’s no need to confuse people just call it bazzite or a container. Atomic is a fedora brand name, it’s not a thing to classify things under.
As you can see from the comments in the thread all this does is confuse people.
Source: I work on bazzite
“Immutable”: A term to describe Linux operating systems that do not follow the traditional filesystem layout where every single file can be removed by the user with root privileges. It is more nuanced than this in the case of Bazzite, but is still considered “immutable” from the point of view of the extended Linux community. The Bazzite team would not describe Bazzite as an “immutable” operating system.
https://docs.bazzite.gg/General/terms/
I’m a big fan of Bazzite, but as stated in the docs, “immutable” is a term the community uses to describe it.
Education is the key to reducing confusion, not pretending a system architecture doesn’t exist or matter.
After reading this I’m confused about what immutable means
Bazzite contributor here, there’s no reason to care about this. This term just confuses people you can safely ignore it.
Pretend your running a live OS off a read-only USB, yet any changes (app installs, config changes, etc) you make are saved to the HD. A new version of the OS comes out, so you write a new ISO to your USB, and upon booting it, all you changes are applied on top.
This is a simplistic view of immutable distros, but thwy wrk more like snapshots. It allows for rollback. So you install v1, then v2 is a newer snapshot of the base OS, v3 is another, always building.
The catch is they often require apps to run under things like flatpak so you don’t have to alter the OS packages. Personally, I’m not a fan for a daily driver, but it’s great for distros like Bazzite.
👑 the goat is here
Dude Fedora? Really
Just use Windows if you want a voyeur.
Call me a Luddite, but I want to retain control over my updates and upgrades. I fear the day that Fedora becomes all atomic, all the time, which I can’t help but think is in the cards
What’s stopping you from turning updates off?
Then what would be the point of using an atomic version?
Just installed it at the start of the month on an older PC for a console-like experience in my living room. Only 2 issues really have me disappointed (and I’m not sure there’s much Bazzite can do about them)
-
No HDMI 2.1 support from my AMD card (like seriously, wtf? Had I known that I probably would have dropped a 9060 XT in instead of a 9070XT)
-
No real wake in controller support for my FlyDigi or Xbox Series controllers. I’ve messed around in udev and found no solutions.
If they can figure those things out, I’d be much more impressed with the experience…. For now it just feels like another FOSS compromise to the product you actually want (PS5 Pro)
Unfortunately, the former is not possible due to asinine requirements by the HDMI Forum: https://www.phoronix.com/news/HDMI-2.1-OSS-Rejected The only option is to use DisplayPort instead (or perhaps an adapter).
Unfortunately, my living room TV has only HDMI in, no DP. I tried the adaptor route, but it was horribly unstable… sometimes providing perfect signal, sometimes cutting to a black screen for a second or 2, every 5-10 seconds. Either way, VRR is wholly unsupported by the adaptor.
Unfortunately nothing that can be done about it unless someome creates an “illegal” kernel module which supports HDMI 2.1 despite the lack of license. That’s basically the only hope right now (and I’m all for it).
-
Go Bazzite, there has been a lot of talk about Bazzite lately, also on YouTube many have been reviewing it, like JayzTwoCents had a feature about it, which probably helped.
I haven’t tried it myself, but it’s great to see that it’s still possible to shake up the Linux community with a new approach.
Congratulations and best of wishes. 👍 🎈Bazzite just works when it’s a regular desktop. The HTPC (with steam game mode) one has a major issue that I don’t see them even addressing, it doesn’t suspend. It goes into a permanent black screen and the PC is still running. Nothing revives it beside a forced reboot. I reported it to their GitHub and got nothing really. I thought it was my hardware, but I had a friend of mine bring his whole tower to my house, we installed bazzite and it did the same thing. His tower has all new AMD hardware. On my laptop, bazzite is solid as hell. Works with zero issues.
It works very nicely on my legion go.
And on the Asus devices. I’ve had this WiFi issue on bazzite on my onexplayer for months until a random developer fixed it by disabling the wifi driver on the device sleeps and re-enables it when it wakes up. The device is now flawless.
Gaming will always take the lead—gamers are usually quick to chase the newest and shiniest things. Bluefin/Aurora adoption takes a bit longer because developers have to adjust their workflows, and there’s still this odd stigma around atomics. People assume you “can’t do things” on an atomic distro that you can on a traditional one, when in reality it’s mostly the same—just a slightly different approach in certain areas. Like with Nix, once it clicks, the pros far outweigh the cons. Personally, Bluefin has made me a more organised and efficient developer.
I can’t upload the images for some reason but here’s the current numbers for the ublue spins
- Bazzite: 26k users -> bazzite.json
- Bluefin: 1.9k users -> bluefin.json
- Bluefin LTS: 40 users -> bluefin-lts.json
- Aurora: 1.3k users -> aurora.json
Bluefin/Aurora adoption takes a bit longer because developers have to adjust their workflows, and there’s still this odd stigma around atomics.
Bluefin maintainer here, our target audience are container people, not people who want to adjust their workflows. The people we cater to don’t have an opinion on “atomics” because no one’s ever heard of that term. They’ve heard of docker or podman though.
Thanks Jorge the good work! I had been using silverblue for years and now I’m running machines with bazzite, bluefin, and ucore os. I really, really enjoy how easy to manage atomic distros are, and how they steer you towards better practices (in dev and sysadmin) by design. Thanks!
I actually just switched from Bazzite to Bluefin on my devices, even my gaming PC
Mostly because I wanted a more minimal/essential experience with less pre-installed packages
I’m sure I’m sacrificing a little gaming performance, but nothing noticeable by me so far
:shrug:
Joke’s on you, Jorge. I use U-Blue just for the great general purpose desktop experience.
I mean yeah sure, if you’re not a developer you can just use it like a chromebook. :D
I honestly don’t know what any of that means. I use Bazzite for automatic updates, Gnome extensions, Portal/ujust commands, update rollbacks, and game mode/Gamescope. It’s simply the most usable distro I’ve found. Bazaar is a nice bonus too. Gnome Software has infuriated me for a long time and I feel like a crazy person because no one talks about it.
I used Nobara for about a month and was constantly pestered with update notifications. There were multiple updaters, I didn’t really understand how to use either of them, and they required a lot of manual input. Eventually I tried to do something else while the updater was running and broke it.
He’s not talking about Bazzite, though. Bluefin and Aurora are built from the same cloud tech as Bazzite, but are more focused towards devs, specifically devs who use containers.
once it clicks, the pros far outweigh the cons
I would love to hear a pro about atomic distros that isn’t some vague platitude about security or stability. I have zero security/stability problems on my ‘normal’ Fedora.
As someone who has steadfastly avoided atomic distros because it sounds like an arseache and the last thing I want is more busywork. Convince me to switch!
Convince me to switch!
Why? If your computer is working fine there’s no reason to mess with it. bootc images are for people who do not want to use whatever you mean by ‘normal’ Fedora.
Because I was being told the pros outweight the cons, and if I can get a better OS, then I want it? I feel like it was a reasonable question and we had a good conversation out of it.
I also put ‘normal’ in quotes myself, I obviously meant a non-atomic Fedora.
I feel like you’re coming across unnecessarily dismissively here, when I was just out for a nice conversation on the benefit of atomic setups (and got two! :) ).
IME the nicest part of Bazzite is not having to manage it. To that end, it works on my Steam Deck. But that’s nothing to do with stability, as you say. In its own ways it’s more annoying to use than a regular distro.
Clearly people are finding use for it, but I personally find those annoying aspects needless speedbumps in my own usage. Except for, again, on my Steam Deck.
Security isn’t really one, but saying don’t mention stability is proving the point—Fedora goes to ten, but Silverblue goes to eleven. That’s like saying, “tell me why Arch is good without mentioning the up-to-date packages.”
For Bluefin, it had everything I was doing with Fedora and then Silverblue OTB, and then some things I didn’t realize I needed. Yes, you can run a container-focused workflow in Fedora, but atomics keep you focused on good practices. With Fedora, my system became a bit of a dependency hell with Python and npm packages; now I have a container per project that can either have its own home dir or just seamlessly integrate with my main system.
I’m the whole IT and dev department for my company, so I would often have dedicated VMs etc. for each focus. Now everything is just seamlessly in my system.
It’s a bit of a reset for sure what isn’t, but once it’s done you know you can just hit the power button and everything is there ready to go.
I’m getting into rolling my own spin at the moment for our thin clients as they only have 16GB of space, and that’s been really easy to set up. Now I have a trimmed-down Bluefin that comes packaged with Remmina, and I can deploy updates just by updating some files on GitHub. It’s really not more busywork, pretty much the opposite for me, my root is basically /var and anything lower level I don’t really need to be messing about with on a workstaiton. I have all my tools most out of the box. I have every language package esp elixir thanks to brew have you tried setting up iex on Ubuntu it’s dog egg. On bluefin, I just brew install elixir.
Thank you for the informative response! :)
saying don’t mention stability is proving the point
My point is that stability is already 100% fine for me now. So saying you’ll make my already rock-solid experience somehow more stable is meaningless. As a power user for over a decade, I’ve personally experienced zero issues where I wished Fedora was somehow more stable. It’s like telling me that Silverblue connects to the internet - Like yes, I already have that.
From what I’m reading, it sounds like the singular ‘pro’ is being forced to do cleaner, more self-contained practices. I can totally see how that would be helpful for some people. But personally, I would genuinely despise that kind of restriction.
I’m admittedly the kind of person who hates being forced to do the ‘best practice’ thing. I’m genuinely happy that my Linux distro will me
rm -rfthe root partition (with an ‘are you sure’ prompt these days :) ). I’m happy that if I really want to purge the kernel package with dnf, then I can. I want (and kind of need) my freedom to make a mess, if I tell Linux to jump, it will goddamn jump, even if it’s a bad practice technically terrible decision. I have zero interest in going all around the houses just to do it the technically correct (and sometimes less-effort-in-the-long-run) way. If I ever want a clean plate, I can still spin up a container just like you’re saying.So I get the feeling that atomic is very much not for me, which is what I suspected :) Very glad that people like yourself find it an improvement, that’s what flavours are for!
Exactly that. It’s not the be all and end all for Linux, nothing ever will be and that’s OK. Some people have had a few issues, especially when Fedora was in the 30s. Just did a quick search, even this year some users reporting it borking itself. But like you, I have never had an issue, but when I deploy machines that are 100 miles from me, I don’t want to deal with that, same for my work machines.
Bazzite works really well for my living room PC, wife approved PS5 replacement. Again, for my personal gaming rig I don’t want to get home go to game and have to deal with some dependency issue. I put Bluefin on my field laptop because again I use it sporadically, and it’ll update on boot if it was cachyOS or workstation there’s a chance it could drift out of spec enough to bork.
So yeah I love the Atomics, but I was prob 90% the way there before Silverblue came about and 95% there when the Ublue stuff stated rolling out.
Like a lot of things Linux it’s not the future of Linux but its a future I think.
I don’t think I’ve even tinkered with Bazzite since installing it. It just works. You do have to get used to container workflows and using flathub but its a marginal amount of overhead for improved security. Bonus points: you can lazy install lots of apps with distrobox, for example you can install .deb files, .rpm files, pull from the AUR, its no biggy, and its all preconfigured and easy to setup.
It’s also nice to be able to rebase your distro whenever you want to try out different spins and features, makes inter-fedora atomic distro hopping easy without destroying your configs.
Thanks for the response, though up to this sentence I’m hearing extra busywork and slow/annoying containerising, in exchange for vague security platitude and a tool which I can already use.
It’s also nice to be able to rebase your distro whenever you want to try out different spins and features, makes inter-fedora atomic distro hopping easy without destroying your configs.
I’m interested by this. Is there a uniqueness to Atomic setups such that you can (more easily) keep your user partition, GNOME configs, etc. and swap out the Fedora distro underneath?
Yep, I can for example rebase from Bazzite to Secureblue and keep all of my configs intact for say, KDE. So if a project goes fubar you aren’t out of luck and need to reinstall and reconfig linux, its trivial to rebase/“swap distro”, its a single command that looks like this
rpm-ostree rebase ostree-image-signed:docker://ghcr.io/ublue-os/bazzite-dx-nvidia:stableAll programs, files, configs, etc are intact in your home directory. I’ve swapped between user created spins for different DEs like Cosmic and so on, whats cool is its all preconfigured to run well under bazzites kernel. Image based upgrades are also very nice, theres inevitably config drift that messes with performance or updates can break your setup on other distros, image based means the devs tweak every interaction and push it all to you with the least effort possible on your part.
This is very cool, and I can suddenly see atomic being useful for certain circumstances. Won’t be using it for my personal computer main driver, but hopping/resetting this is easily attracts me so. Thank you!
rpm-ostree is pretty nifty in general, it functions like git so it reapplies each of your configs over what the devs do each time you upgrade, leading to as little config drift and broken upgrades as possible. each upgrade feels like a fresh install imo
I switched from Fedora KDE to Kinoite a few months ago. Both were 100% stable for me as well.
The main reason I switched to Kinoite is because I’m a digital hoarder and after 5 years or so all my systems are completely trashed with various libraries, 12 different PHP/.NET versions, custom builds and a bazillion Python packages.
In the end it always causes issues like my builds stop working because I have some ancient version of a library stashed away somewhere.
Immutable distros are really easy to return to “factory defaults”. It keeps a list of all the packages that are installed on the system and everything else now goes in Toolboxes, Distroboxes or Docker containers. If I mess up my C++ environment (again) I can just delete that toolbox and start from scratch.
I still manage to bloat my home directory but that is much easier to clean up than looking through all system files.
I switched to fedora for stability and pretty consistently each major update would break my computer. I switched to fedora silverblue and everything is so much simpler and upgrading is a breeze. A few times I have missed the simplicity of just installing random obscure software or toolkits for school but typically I can use containers and that also works nicely.
I also prefer using containers anyways because that aligns with how I mentally organize things. Flatpak has basically everything I need so that’s not a concern either.
Edit: I see you don’t benefit from stability, so don’t worry about that bit. It benefits me greatly though.
Surprised to see it at the bottom of the graph, but for anyone with a homelab uCore is a present from the
heavenscloud!Feel like saying more about what ya like?
Hey, I’m one of those! Started using Bazzite in July, have absolutely fallen in love. My whole gaming library is available, which has been a real first for me with Linux.
Bazzite community really deserves tbe credit. Lots of work and great vibes all around!
