The reason steam engines went went away was because of economics. Electric motors where more powerful, more efficient, fewer moving parts and less maintenance, can power up instantly and don’t need to heat up a boiler for an hour before it’s ready - so in short cheaper to run.
The problem I see with EVs in germany is that electricity costs are already high, and with extra fees on fast charging the price advantage is not there compared to petrol - at least not if you rely on public charging and don’t have a solar roof at home.
An EV is at 15-20kWh/100km so with 0.3€/kWh we are talking 4.5-6€/100km. Average petrol car is at 7.7l/100km. With prices of 1.6€/l we are talking 12.3€/100km. So about twice as much as an EV for home charging. With fast charging it would be about the same. The electric motor being less problematic is also true against a combustion engine. It should last longer, if built properly.
Also the reason EVs are more expensive is that there is a lack of cheap batteries. We currently see a lot of factories being built. This means lower battery prices and therefore lower EV prices. Some of the offers of BYD and the like are already very good.
I drive electric in Germany and I wish the price is what you claim. On a public charger it is >0,5€/kWh.
It’s up to >0,8€/kWh when they pull a quick one and charge you out of network prices - which is a constant danger when driving long distance.
It’s almost as bad as mobile roaming used to be before the EU stepped in. I’m not planning to go back but the pricing is fucked up. The price schemes need to be regulated.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners?
That most people live outside of cities?
Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
Also: Could you kindly respond to the question I mentioned in my previous comment? It would be greatly appreciated and show a minimal bit of courtesy.
Did you so far only drive short distance/commute or did you get to ‘enjoy’ the pricing schemes on fast chargers?
So far I never drove long distance in an EV.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners?
No, but cars cost a lot of money. So if they are not they should very seriously think about needing a car.
That most people live outside of cities?
Yes. Less then a third of Germans live in cities(over 100k population) the rest lives in towns or rural regions.
Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
No, but they live in a German city, which means they do not need a car. In fact the more rural, the more likely they actually have those options.
Do you believe that somebody living in a rented flat in say Darmstadt needs a car? The city has trams and is pretty dense after all. You can buy a decent flat for like 400k€ in Darmstadt, so the 50k€ a good EV would cost you, is half the down payment for a flat and the costs for insurance, taxes and are pretty close to the difference between mortgage payments and renting. Would you recommend somebody to buy the flat or the EV? That is true for most German cities, with different costs for flats though.
The more rural the region, the easier it is to charge at home using solar and the more you actually need a car. I know that there are rural apartment blocks and so forth, but that is not normal. At the same time I actually know a few people living in cities, who own their own home and even more, who have access to a private parking lot, which can be used for home charging. Balcony solar is also a thing.
That is why I posted the statistics above. It shows what actual EV owners actually charger their EVs. That being mostly at home.
But the price difference is not so extreme that people would scrap their petrol car for an new 20000 Euro or more EV overnight. It’s only important for people who drive a lot.
I have been looking into this as I’d like to switch. My current car needs roughly 6.5 liters of gas per 100km, gas where I live is around 1.70-1.80€/l, that’s around 11-11.70€/100km Somewhat reasonable EVs of similar size need something between 17-20 kWh/100 km, so break even should be between 55 - 68 cents/kWh.
Electricity at home is around 40 cents, so no solar roof required to save at least some money. (It’s actually more like 30-35 cents if you remember that you need to pay the monthly baseline anyway since you need power for your home).
Public charging heavily depends on the owner of the charger, but you can find AC charging below 60 cents. (I hope we’ll get some regulation against roaming costs between different companies at some point).
Fast charging is expensive and it depends on the individual use case if you need a lot of that. But gas on the highway is more expensive too, especially during holiday season (when a lot of people take longer trips).
But it’s true that the advantage isn’t as obvious as it should be, especially compared to the up front costs.
Who said that this is fine in general? The argument that electric vehicles are not competitive with petrol cars in Germany IF you use public charging stations only is kind of irrelevant if in reality 90% of charging cycles are done at home.
The same was true for steam engines, they were not forbidden but the companies that only complained still went bankrupt.
The reason steam engines went went away was because of economics. Electric motors where more powerful, more efficient, fewer moving parts and less maintenance, can power up instantly and don’t need to heat up a boiler for an hour before it’s ready - so in short cheaper to run.
The problem I see with EVs in germany is that electricity costs are already high, and with extra fees on fast charging the price advantage is not there compared to petrol - at least not if you rely on public charging and don’t have a solar roof at home.
An EV is at 15-20kWh/100km so with 0.3€/kWh we are talking 4.5-6€/100km. Average petrol car is at 7.7l/100km. With prices of 1.6€/l we are talking 12.3€/100km. So about twice as much as an EV for home charging. With fast charging it would be about the same. The electric motor being less problematic is also true against a combustion engine. It should last longer, if built properly.
Also the reason EVs are more expensive is that there is a lack of cheap batteries. We currently see a lot of factories being built. This means lower battery prices and therefore lower EV prices. Some of the offers of BYD and the like are already very good.
I drive electric in Germany and I wish the price is what you claim. On a public charger it is >0,5€/kWh.
It’s up to >0,8€/kWh when they pull a quick one and charge you out of network prices - which is a constant danger when driving long distance.
It’s almost as bad as mobile roaming used to be before the EU stepped in. I’m not planning to go back but the pricing is fucked up. The price schemes need to be regulated.
Those are home charging prices.
I’m aware. Comparing home prices to gas stations is apples & pears though. Especially since most people won’t be able to charge at home.
Did you so far only drive short distance/commute or did you get to ‘enjoy’ the pricing schemes on fast chargers?
53% of charges are done at home, 15% at work and 32% at public chargers. 34% charge their car almost exclusivly with local solar.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners? That most people live outside of cities? Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
Also: Could you kindly respond to the question I mentioned in my previous comment? It would be greatly appreciated and show a minimal bit of courtesy.
So far I never drove long distance in an EV.
No, but cars cost a lot of money. So if they are not they should very seriously think about needing a car.
Yes. Less then a third of Germans live in cities(over 100k population) the rest lives in towns or rural regions.
No, but they live in a German city, which means they do not need a car. In fact the more rural, the more likely they actually have those options.
Do you believe that somebody living in a rented flat in say Darmstadt needs a car? The city has trams and is pretty dense after all. You can buy a decent flat for like 400k€ in Darmstadt, so the 50k€ a good EV would cost you, is half the down payment for a flat and the costs for insurance, taxes and are pretty close to the difference between mortgage payments and renting. Would you recommend somebody to buy the flat or the EV? That is true for most German cities, with different costs for flats though.
The more rural the region, the easier it is to charge at home using solar and the more you actually need a car. I know that there are rural apartment blocks and so forth, but that is not normal. At the same time I actually know a few people living in cities, who own their own home and even more, who have access to a private parking lot, which can be used for home charging. Balcony solar is also a thing.
That is why I posted the statistics above. It shows what actual EV owners actually charger their EVs. That being mostly at home.
But the price difference is not so extreme that people would scrap their petrol car for an new 20000 Euro or more EV overnight. It’s only important for people who drive a lot.
No, but it means that as soon as EVs and combustion engine cars cost the same, people will choose EVs. We are pretty close to that point.
I have been looking into this as I’d like to switch. My current car needs roughly 6.5 liters of gas per 100km, gas where I live is around 1.70-1.80€/l, that’s around 11-11.70€/100km Somewhat reasonable EVs of similar size need something between 17-20 kWh/100 km, so break even should be between 55 - 68 cents/kWh.
Electricity at home is around 40 cents, so no solar roof required to save at least some money. (It’s actually more like 30-35 cents if you remember that you need to pay the monthly baseline anyway since you need power for your home).
Public charging heavily depends on the owner of the charger, but you can find AC charging below 60 cents. (I hope we’ll get some regulation against roaming costs between different companies at some point).
Fast charging is expensive and it depends on the individual use case if you need a lot of that. But gas on the highway is more expensive too, especially during holiday season (when a lot of people take longer trips).
But it’s true that the advantage isn’t as obvious as it should be, especially compared to the up front costs.
Ok do you know a single person that relies on public charging for their ev? Cuz I don’t.
And do you think this is sustainable if we acknowledge the need to reach net 0 carbon?
How?
Who said that this is fine in general? The argument that electric vehicles are not competitive with petrol cars in Germany IF you use public charging stations only is kind of irrelevant if in reality 90% of charging cycles are done at home.
Of course it’s relevant. We need people who can’t charge at home (the vast majority) to switch to EVs.