So if you were among those that don’t want either of those things, you’d be willing to give up your life (and those of the others with a similar mindset) in order to hopefully take the assholes out? How… insanely murderous of you. You’re no better than Netanyahu.
It’s not about “taking the assholes out”. It’s about showing the Israeli government officials, and the constituents who are actually able to pressure those officials and exert collective power, that you can’t just indiscriminately murder people without inciting the exact same violence onto your own people. As long as bombs are falling, why should they be contained to the side that is completely powerless to stop them?
This is the first legit response I’ve received thus far, so I want to thank you for that.
You make a good point - one I can kind of get behind. My initial comment, however, was in response to the idea of using nuclear weapons on them - that’s far too indiscriminate a weapon to be using, and one that will have lasting effects that spread beyond Israel. Nuclear fallout won’t stop at Palestinian borders, for example.
I don’t think nukes (re: literally triggering armageddon) would ever seriously be on the table so I don’t really care to argue that point either way. It’s satire, I took it as hyperbole.
Yeah, I know. My first comment was a joke about two wrongs not making a right, just a right-wing - but then things went off the rail when someone asked what the second wrong was & I made the mistake of replying.
Agreed. How anyone can still stand the stench of Netanyahu - let alone continue to back him - is beyond me. It blows my mind that it’s taken this long for any even vaguely serious action against them to happen.
The war machine generates power and wealth by wreaking devastation onto far away lands, then uses that power and wealth to create more war. Netanyahu is and has always been powerless without the international community enabling him. Israel and its colonial project are wholly western inventions. The western nations backing Israel wouldn’t suddenly shut it down now that it is executing its intended purpose while also absorbing most if not all of the generated backlash. Not without major resistance.
But even those countries who aren’t likely profiting from it have been rather muted in their reactions. It’s rather disappointing. Only their nearby middle eastern neighbors have really had anything significant in terms of response up until recently.
I’ve no idea how strong North Korean nukes are, but I’d be surprised if they weren’t significantly more powerful than those used on Japan.
Besides, as repressed as the truly Orthodox Jews come off to me… there’s probably plenty of what you’re after already. Nuking them might make glow-in-the-dark femboys, tho, so there’s that…
You OK? Equating being anti-genocide and antifascist to being ‘no better’ than modern-day Hitler, who is currently doing a genocide of mostly children, makes zero sense.
It’s already a one-state reality, an apartheid state. The solution is equal rights and right of return for all Palestinians within historic Palestine, and reparations.
Hamas, alongside many other factions, are resistance groups born out of the apartheid with the goal of liberation from the apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
Between July 1971 and February 1972, Sharon enjoyed considerable success. During this time, the entire Strip (apart from the Rafah area) was sealed off by a ring of security fences 53 miles in length, with few entrypoints. Today, their effects live on: there are only three points of entry to Gaza—Erez, Nahal Oz, and Rafah.
Perhaps the most dramatic and painful aspect of Sharon’s campaign was the widening of roads in the refugee camps to facilitate military access. Israel built nearly 200 miles of security roads and destroyed thousands of refugee dwellings as part of the widening process.’ In August 1971, for example, the Israeli army destroyed 7,729 rooms (approximately 2,000 houses) in three vola- tile camps, displacing 15,855 refugees: 7,217 from Jabalya, 4,836 from Shati, and 3,802 from Rafah.
Page 105
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986.
page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60% over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50% decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (combined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
HAMAS would also kill the shit out of Israelis, let’s not kid ourselves. They are just opportunistic religious psychopaths that are taking advantage of legitimate issues to seem like the good guys. Actually kind of funny that they were put in the same situation as the Gaza civilians, forced to struggle against a superior force for their survival.
The existence of Hamas, and any armed resistance movement, is directly due to the decades of violence experienced daily under the permanent occupation, the Apartheid State, of Israel. It’s impossible to understand their existence if you don’t understand the lived experience and material conditions they are forced to live under. There is no such thing as a perfect victim when it comes to anti-Colonialist resistance, not for the Vietcong, the IRA, or the ANC either. Can you condemn the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the same way as the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto?
Adi Callai has also done a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history, as well as an analysis of Franz Fanon and Identity Politics in the context of Colonialism and Anti-colonialism.
I’m fine, as I try to treat each individual as just that - an individual worthy of respect until they show otherwise. Just because you are born & raised in a certain location doesn’t mean you’re going to be of the same mindset as the majority of those others who were. I’m not okay with murdering innocents for the sake of taking out the assholes - an issue you’re poorly attempting to sidestep.
Wow - that’s quite the stretch there. I said no such thing, and you know it - that is unless you’re a bot, which is the only way I can see someone making that leap.
Address my point directly, or I’ll assume you’re just another disingenuous troll and move on.
You don’t stop a genocide by asking nicely. There is no way tomorrow that innocent people don’t die to this shit. I personally am of the opinion that no number of Zionist lives is worth the life of a single one of their victims. Do you think they’ll stop just because a gun’s pointed at them? Do you remember how that worked in Germany?
No. Kill as many as you need to, and kill them quickly, so they don’t have time to finish. Fewer innocents die that way.
You excuse netanyahu’s bullshit. He’s got the full Jim Henson on you.
They are citizens of a/the Zionist state. And yeah, thats the point. One genuine complete innocent from there is not worth a single minute’s death toll of Palestinians.
Providing cover for it to continue on the explicit assumption that ‘innocent zionist’ lives do matter–but no Palestinian life matters, and a Palestinian cannot be innocent. That there is no number of bombs and bullets I paid for designed by people I might have met built by people I might’ve drunk at the same bar with falling on Palestinian hospitals and refugee camps and used for secondary strikes to catch medics or targeting the genitals of children for the lulz that could be stopped is worth the life of a single ‘innocent Zionist’.
It’s strong implicit Genocide denial and strong implicit dehumanization of Palestinians–used to say the genocide must be allowed to finish, or denying it and the ocean of innocent blood rapidly rising because of it. I am done discussing this issue with you–either you’re in bad faith and I don’t give a shit what you have to say, or I’ve given you something to think about for a couple days and you should process that before responding.
no Palestinian life matters, and a Palestinian cannot be innocent.
If you’re going to “debate” by putting words in my mouth, we’re done here. I never said, nor implied anything of the sort.
I am done discussing this issue with you–either you’re in bad faith and I don’t give a shit what you have to say,
Funny, I was about to say the same with you putting words in my mouth.
or I’ve given you something to think about for a couple days and you should process that before responding.
You’re obviously not even thinking about what I’ve said, and you’ve therefore done no such thing. It’s obvious you’re too full of yourself to debate in good faith, so goodbye & good riddance.
So if you were among those that don’t want either of those things, you’d be willing to give up your life (and those of the others with a similar mindset) in order to hopefully take the assholes out? How… insanely murderous of you. You’re no better than Netanyahu.
My friend. You are in the Memes sub and taking something too literally.
People are blowing off steam here. No one wants to literally nuke all of Israel. Palestinians would die as well.
Now if we could group up all the IDF into an area and do a mini nuke. Maybe.
^Another joke. See? Blowing off steam. See how it works?
Edit: nvm, read more of your comments. You seem to just be a liberal Zionist doing liberal Zionist things. Carry on.
It’s not about “taking the assholes out”. It’s about showing the Israeli government officials, and the constituents who are actually able to pressure those officials and exert collective power, that you can’t just indiscriminately murder people without inciting the exact same violence onto your own people. As long as bombs are falling, why should they be contained to the side that is completely powerless to stop them?
This is the first legit response I’ve received thus far, so I want to thank you for that.
You make a good point - one I can kind of get behind. My initial comment, however, was in response to the idea of using nuclear weapons on them - that’s far too indiscriminate a weapon to be using, and one that will have lasting effects that spread beyond Israel. Nuclear fallout won’t stop at Palestinian borders, for example.
I don’t think nukes (re: literally triggering armageddon) would ever seriously be on the table so I don’t really care to argue that point either way. It’s satire, I took it as hyperbole.
Yeah, I know. My first comment was a joke about two wrongs not making a right, just a right-wing - but then things went off the rail when someone asked what the second wrong was & I made the mistake of replying.
🤷
It’s a touchy subject. Pretty understandably, I might add.
Agreed. How anyone can still stand the stench of Netanyahu - let alone continue to back him - is beyond me. It blows my mind that it’s taken this long for any even vaguely serious action against them to happen.
The war machine generates power and wealth by wreaking devastation onto far away lands, then uses that power and wealth to create more war. Netanyahu is and has always been powerless without the international community enabling him. Israel and its colonial project are wholly western inventions. The western nations backing Israel wouldn’t suddenly shut it down now that it is executing its intended purpose while also absorbing most if not all of the generated backlash. Not without major resistance.
But even those countries who aren’t likely profiting from it have been rather muted in their reactions. It’s rather disappointing. Only their nearby middle eastern neighbors have really had anything significant in terms of response up until recently.
Civilians are dying either way. Fuck it, launch the nukes!
For the same reason America bombed Japan: less casualties that way, and maybe we will get more femboys and anime out of them.
Fewer casualties was not the real reason.
I’ve no idea how strong North Korean nukes are, but I’d be surprised if they weren’t significantly more powerful than those used on Japan.
Besides, as repressed as the truly Orthodox Jews come off to me… there’s probably plenty of what you’re after already. Nuking them might make glow-in-the-dark femboys, tho, so there’s that…
You OK? Equating being anti-genocide and antifascist to being ‘no better’ than modern-day Hitler, who is currently doing a genocide of mostly children, makes zero sense.
It’s already a one-state reality, an apartheid state. The solution is equal rights and right of return for all Palestinians within historic Palestine, and reparations.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Hamas, alongside many other factions, are resistance groups born out of the apartheid with the goal of liberation from the apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
Peace Process and Solution
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
HAMAS would also kill the shit out of Israelis, let’s not kid ourselves. They are just opportunistic religious psychopaths that are taking advantage of legitimate issues to seem like the good guys. Actually kind of funny that they were put in the same situation as the Gaza civilians, forced to struggle against a superior force for their survival.
They were finally put to good use.
The existence of Hamas, and any armed resistance movement, is directly due to the decades of violence experienced daily under the permanent occupation, the Apartheid State, of Israel. It’s impossible to understand their existence if you don’t understand the lived experience and material conditions they are forced to live under. There is no such thing as a perfect victim when it comes to anti-Colonialist resistance, not for the Vietcong, the IRA, or the ANC either. Can you condemn the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the same way as the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto?
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
Adi Callai has also done a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history, as well as an analysis of Franz Fanon and Identity Politics in the context of Colonialism and Anti-colonialism.
Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
I’m fine, as I try to treat each individual as just that - an individual worthy of respect until they show otherwise. Just because you are born & raised in a certain location doesn’t mean you’re going to be of the same mindset as the majority of those others who were. I’m not okay with murdering innocents for the sake of taking out the assholes - an issue you’re poorly attempting to sidestep.
So you think the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was not OK by that same standard
Way to ‘both sides’ a genocide. Disgusting.
Wow - that’s quite the stretch there. I said no such thing, and you know it - that is unless you’re a bot, which is the only way I can see someone making that leap.
Address my point directly, or I’ll assume you’re just another disingenuous troll and move on.
You don’t stop a genocide by asking nicely. There is no way tomorrow that innocent people don’t die to this shit. I personally am of the opinion that no number of Zionist lives is worth the life of a single one of their victims. Do you think they’ll stop just because a gun’s pointed at them? Do you remember how that worked in Germany?
No. Kill as many as you need to, and kill them quickly, so they don’t have time to finish. Fewer innocents die that way.
You excuse netanyahu’s bullshit. He’s got the full Jim Henson on you.
Not all of them are Zionists. Just accept some casualties.
They are citizens of a/the Zionist state. And yeah, thats the point. One genuine complete innocent from there is not worth a single minute’s death toll of Palestinians.
Point to where I excuse him? I’ll wait…
Providing cover for it to continue on the explicit assumption that ‘innocent zionist’ lives do matter–but no Palestinian life matters, and a Palestinian cannot be innocent. That there is no number of bombs and bullets I paid for designed by people I might have met built by people I might’ve drunk at the same bar with falling on Palestinian hospitals and refugee camps and used for secondary strikes to catch medics or targeting the genitals of children for the lulz that could be stopped is worth the life of a single ‘innocent Zionist’.
It’s strong implicit Genocide denial and strong implicit dehumanization of Palestinians–used to say the genocide must be allowed to finish, or denying it and the ocean of innocent blood rapidly rising because of it. I am done discussing this issue with you–either you’re in bad faith and I don’t give a shit what you have to say, or I’ve given you something to think about for a couple days and you should process that before responding.
If you’re going to “debate” by putting words in my mouth, we’re done here. I never said, nor implied anything of the sort.
Funny, I was about to say the same with you putting words in my mouth.
You’re obviously not even thinking about what I’ve said, and you’ve therefore done no such thing. It’s obvious you’re too full of yourself to debate in good faith, so goodbye & good riddance.