I literelly don’t know which “side is right” in this argument.
In a country where there is propaganda and social media is strictly moderated by the government and not a lot of independent journalism (like YouTube or blogs even get pressured to shut down) and which has a social score controlling your life and thougs - how would one make a actually independent and fair survey? There is no democracy, so why turn against it if you have no way of changing it?
Of cause we are a bit brainwashed by the west and Chinas enemies and I think trump helped a lot to remove the elusion of a “good and strong america”. But it still feels like the people are more free in the west, we have democracy and solid education and independent social media and journalism which is very important to me.
And its very impressive what China achieved in the short amount of time, compared to the west, industrially speaking. But socially (like what the government does) I really would not want to live there at all.
I feel like many people here on Lemmy have just the same black and white thinking of “china good, murica bad”, which is maybe just as delusional as all the MAGA idiots.
Plus there are many other western countries that are quite solid and doing well mostly, which often get overlooked in this debate
I think you have a great opportunity to learn more about the PRC, and how socialism works in the real world. No, it isn’t black and white thinking. You can find good socialist critique on Lemmy, I normally focus on exposing holes in the lazy critique or outright slander because that’s what’s dominant in the west. Socialist spaces already have discussions on China, and since we communists already spend a good deal of time trying to study it as well as communist theory and history, it helps elevate discussion beyond what’s normally had in the west.
A good example here is your claim that China isn’t democratic. This is wrong, though a common misconception. China has a comprehensive, whole-process people’s democracy based on gathering input from the people and laddering decisionmaking upwards from the local level. The top of the CPC is like the brain, while the different regional and provincial organs make their own decisions and inform the brain. Chinese citizens are overwhelmingly satisfied with their democracy as a consequence:
There’s a lot of western polling supporting this as well. This should come as no surprise, though, the west seeks to understand why the CPC enjoys such positive support so they can undermine it. A fun place to start learning about Chinese democracy is Democracy is not an Ornament by Xi Jinping himself!
I know about the distribution of power, that has a kind of pyramid shape, sorry for the lack of vocabulary.
I have also seen videos, of cause one sided, from people that lived in China for some time and displaying their view.
One very popular story is the “they paint their grass green”, which I understood as follows:
There is the goal of having a certain amount of green land in the country, so each region trys to reach that goal and show the higher ups how good it is going by having green grass and hills.
This is of cause a very simplified scenario, but I have read a few other things that aren’t so great. Of cause you can say the same thing about many other western and global north countries, but very few people are so emotional and strong opinionated as supporters of China, some north korea or Russia. I feel like i have not read a comment with such a strong opinion about any other country here on Lemmy.
I see that the view of most westerns is shifted from reality, but I have not read a comment that seems to see both sides of that country, it seems very extremistic.
Now when I think of China, these things come to mind:
the Uighurs
not quite working democracy
extreme surveillance
stories of people getting herassed by the police for criticising the state or being different (Naomi Wu on yt for example)
impressive industrial development in the last few decades
high working ethics
creativity in engineering
skilled labour
high building rates of solar and renewable energy sources
also high coal production and high building rates of coal power plants
high censorship, as it can be seen with deepseek and other AI or media
stories about testing radioactivity on a village
striving for higher environmental regulations in the industry
affiliation with Russia, that invaded Ukraine (after the Nato got closer of cause, which might be seen as a provocative move)
affiliation with north korea, which is a different conversation
their problem with Taiwan and tsmc
hard working conditions in factories (owned by western companies sometimes, but the government is supposed to protect the citizens in my view)
Now this is of cause not at all everything and I am aware its a view fuelled by western media.
But if half of those things are true, its still not going great.
I don’t want to talk China down, I want to understand why so many people in this space are pro china, when I see the government as pretty critical.
I know the us is putting a ton of effort into discredit other forms of government or markets, and there are for sure a few points in this list that is heavily influenced by them.
To be short, communists support China because it’s a socialist country, and is one of the three states that the west puts as much misinformation on as possible. Considering the PRC is much better than western countries, there’s a lot of discussion on it.
Some of these points you raise are true, but good, like maintaining positive relations with the DPRK. Others are partially true, partially false, as an example censorship is usually for capitalists. China still has capitalists, so it restricts their ability to influence society. Others are misleading, China does use coal but it’s also rapidly electrifying, outproducing everyone on solar panels, and actually exceeds its climate goals with low per-capita emissions.
I recommend looking more into the situation in Xinjiang. The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
Tourists also go to Xinjiang all the time. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
Returning to China in general, though, there’s a lot to like about it thanks to socialism, and it’s important to dispel mythos used as justification for souring relations between China and the west.
It’s a speech, not a “personal propaganda book.” Secondly, why would you not want to understand the perspective of the head of state of China on democracy when trying to research democracy in China? It isn’t the only thing one should read, but it’s a good speech and elaborates on the Chinese position well, helping contextualize the positive perception around democracy in China compared to western countries.
Any speech trying to push a viewpoint is propaganda, ie pretty much every political speech. Propaganda can be good or bad depending on what it’s pushing, it isn’t synonymous with “lies.” I still see no reason why one should avoid reading Xi Jinping’s viewpoint on democracy and how it’s used in China, it’s not like after reading it your brain turns you into a Maoist sleeper agent. It takes 14 minutes to read, that’s nearly nothing.
I literelly don’t know which “side is right” in this argument. In a country where there is propaganda and social media is strictly moderated by the government and not a lot of independent journalism (like YouTube or blogs even get pressured to shut down) and which has a social score controlling your life and thougs - how would one make a actually independent and fair survey? There is no democracy, so why turn against it if you have no way of changing it?
Of cause we are a bit brainwashed by the west and Chinas enemies and I think trump helped a lot to remove the elusion of a “good and strong america”. But it still feels like the people are more free in the west, we have democracy and solid education and independent social media and journalism which is very important to me.
And its very impressive what China achieved in the short amount of time, compared to the west, industrially speaking. But socially (like what the government does) I really would not want to live there at all.
I feel like many people here on Lemmy have just the same black and white thinking of “china good, murica bad”, which is maybe just as delusional as all the MAGA idiots.
Plus there are many other western countries that are quite solid and doing well mostly, which often get overlooked in this debate
Any thoughts?
I think you have a great opportunity to learn more about the PRC, and how socialism works in the real world. No, it isn’t black and white thinking. You can find good socialist critique on Lemmy, I normally focus on exposing holes in the lazy critique or outright slander because that’s what’s dominant in the west. Socialist spaces already have discussions on China, and since we communists already spend a good deal of time trying to study it as well as communist theory and history, it helps elevate discussion beyond what’s normally had in the west.
A good example here is your claim that China isn’t democratic. This is wrong, though a common misconception. China has a comprehensive, whole-process people’s democracy based on gathering input from the people and laddering decisionmaking upwards from the local level. The top of the CPC is like the brain, while the different regional and provincial organs make their own decisions and inform the brain. Chinese citizens are overwhelmingly satisfied with their democracy as a consequence:
There’s a lot of western polling supporting this as well. This should come as no surprise, though, the west seeks to understand why the CPC enjoys such positive support so they can undermine it. A fun place to start learning about Chinese democracy is Democracy is not an Ornament by Xi Jinping himself!
Thanks for your reply!
I know about the distribution of power, that has a kind of pyramid shape, sorry for the lack of vocabulary. I have also seen videos, of cause one sided, from people that lived in China for some time and displaying their view. One very popular story is the “they paint their grass green”, which I understood as follows: There is the goal of having a certain amount of green land in the country, so each region trys to reach that goal and show the higher ups how good it is going by having green grass and hills. This is of cause a very simplified scenario, but I have read a few other things that aren’t so great. Of cause you can say the same thing about many other western and global north countries, but very few people are so emotional and strong opinionated as supporters of China, some north korea or Russia. I feel like i have not read a comment with such a strong opinion about any other country here on Lemmy.
I see that the view of most westerns is shifted from reality, but I have not read a comment that seems to see both sides of that country, it seems very extremistic.
Now when I think of China, these things come to mind:
Now this is of cause not at all everything and I am aware its a view fuelled by western media. But if half of those things are true, its still not going great.
I don’t want to talk China down, I want to understand why so many people in this space are pro china, when I see the government as pretty critical. I know the us is putting a ton of effort into discredit other forms of government or markets, and there are for sure a few points in this list that is heavily influenced by them.
To be short, communists support China because it’s a socialist country, and is one of the three states that the west puts as much misinformation on as possible. Considering the PRC is much better than western countries, there’s a lot of discussion on it.
Some of these points you raise are true, but good, like maintaining positive relations with the DPRK. Others are partially true, partially false, as an example censorship is usually for capitalists. China still has capitalists, so it restricts their ability to influence society. Others are misleading, China does use coal but it’s also rapidly electrifying, outproducing everyone on solar panels, and actually exceeds its climate goals with low per-capita emissions.
I recommend looking more into the situation in Xinjiang. The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists also go to Xinjiang all the time. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
Returning to China in general, though, there’s a lot to like about it thanks to socialism, and it’s important to dispel mythos used as justification for souring relations between China and the west.
Removed by mod
It’s a speech, not a “personal propaganda book.” Secondly, why would you not want to understand the perspective of the head of state of China on democracy when trying to research democracy in China? It isn’t the only thing one should read, but it’s a good speech and elaborates on the Chinese position well, helping contextualize the positive perception around democracy in China compared to western countries.
Sorry, propaganda speech
What exactly makes a “propaganda speech” different from a regular one?
Any speech trying to push a viewpoint is propaganda, ie pretty much every political speech. Propaganda can be good or bad depending on what it’s pushing, it isn’t synonymous with “lies.” I still see no reason why one should avoid reading Xi Jinping’s viewpoint on democracy and how it’s used in China, it’s not like after reading it your brain turns you into a Maoist sleeper agent. It takes 14 minutes to read, that’s nearly nothing.