What is the difference between a “strongman” and a head of state? What makes one socialist system with a leader acceptable and leftist, and another not? Are all leaders inherently antithetical to leftism, in your views? If so, then that disqualifies the vast majority of Marxism.
Good question! I’m not really sure the difference really matters. The leaders in a socialist or anarchist system are provisional and only serve at the pleasure of those they represent. This is in stark contrast to the NK system, where the lower classes have absolutely no say in their representation and next to no say in the economic sphere. How is this an improvement over even liberal capitalism?
When you hear Marxists talk about statelessness, there are two important factors. The first is that the state, in the eyes of Marxists, is distinct from administration, management, etc, the state is the instrument by which the ruling class, the one with firm control over the means of production, oppresses the other classes in society. The second is that the state can only disappear when class disappears, and class can only disappear when all production globally is collectivized. If any socialist state erased itself, its armies, its control over capital, etc, it would be invaded and collapsed immediately.
Another point that I largely agree with! The state is a means of consolidating power through all three avenues of control: sovereignty (exclusive use of force), secrecy (control of information), and charismatic competition for power (like the NK military). My issue is that North Korea is doing absolutely nothing to eliminate class distinctions; on the contrary, they use incredibly oppressive rule to prevent the lower classes from achieving anything approaching political or economic power.
Hierarchy of power is more of an anarchist critique than a Marxist critique. Anarchists see hierarchy in general as bad (with some caveats), while Marxists critique class dynamics. A full, late-stage communist society would lack a state, but would still have managers, administrators, and hierarchy (though no class).
An anarchistic society has managers, administrators, and voluntary hierarchy. It is about removing the means of oppression; it is a misconception that anarchism is against hierarchy in general (another point of agreement).
But this is all largely irrelevant to my larger point: what actually makes North Korea “leftist?” The oppressive state control, the violent oppression of the lower classes in favor of a ruling elite, the restriction of basic personal and economic freedoms, the intense control of information, control of movement, and oppressive violence are, again, what we would expect from a far-right dictatorship.
So again, what is actually leftist about North Korea? Even based in Marxism? Because a highly economically stratified society is not based on any definition of “leftist” I’ve ever heard. It looks like a right-wing dictatorship with a coat of red paint to me.
Who owns the means of production in North Korea? It sure doesn’t look like the workers to me.
There are a large number of claims you’ve made here with no sources. Where are you getting your information from?
This is in stark contrast to the NK system, where the lower classes have absolutely no say in their representation and next to no say in the economic sphere.
First, property is near entirely state-owned. There are very controlled and minor elements of private property, like the Rason Special Economic Zone, but production is handled at the state level. The state isn’t a class, and neither are administrators, but extensions of class. Saying “lower classes” doesn’t really make any sense, here. There’s also a good deal of collective decision making in the economy, since it’s a centralized economy and everyone is pretty much a worker in the same system, this is a necessary implement for the economy to function.
My issue is that North Korea is doing absolutely nothing to eliminate class distinctions; on the contrary, they use incredibly oppressive rule to prevent the lower classes from achieving anything approaching political or economic power.
Again, I’m not sure you know what a class is. A class is a social relation to production. The only way to eliminate class is to collectivize all of production, globally, and the DPRK has a very collectivized economy. There are criticisms to be made of its economy, but certainly not along the ideas of class.
But this is all largely irrelevant to my larger point: what actually makes North Korea “leftist?” The oppressive state control, the violent oppression of the lower classes in favor of a ruling elite, the restriction of basic personal and economic freedoms, the intense control of information, control of movement, and oppressive violence are, again, what we would expect from a far-right dictatorship.
The DPRK is leftist because it has a collectivized, socialist economy. That doesn’t mean it’s a utopia, but on the other hand the people actually do support their system, because they are doing well when contextualizing the extreme violence they face through brutal sanctions and recovering from genocide at the hands of the US. There aren’t “lower classes” and “higher classes,” but stratification in society due to different roles in the collectivized system (outside areas like Rason, which have private property and engage in foreign trade). Far-right regimes rely on bourgeois property and systems run for the purpose of the profit motive, but the DPRK’s system is a centralized economy run for fulfilling needs.
Who owns the means of production in North Korea? It sure doesn’t look like the workers to me.
The means of production are publicly owned.
Overall, I really think you need to do more research on the DPRK. I have my own criticisms with it, but ultimately they aren’t an imperialist nation and are supportive of their system. It’s up to them to chart their own course. My hope is that one day the ROK and DPRK can normalize relations, and the entire Korean people can be unified once more, progressing hand in hand to a better future. The fact that the US millitary illegalized the popularly supported pan-Korean state and split it in two against the will of the Korean people is a tragedy time hasn’t healed yet.
I never said they were an imperialist system, just that the extreme economic stratification is counter to their claims to be a leftist country.
I also never claimed that the US didn’t devastate that region.
I also never said that property was not state owned; my point was that the state exists to serve the Kim regime. You can clearly see how wealth and privilege are tied to loyalty to the regime. Like I said: workers have some economic freedom, but only so far as the regime allows. While the workers “own” the means on paper, they have very little say in the economic distribution of said production. In effect, the Kim regime owns the means of production.
You’re making a claim that the North Koreans are happy with their situation, but like I said information is highly controlled there. Why is the regime so afraid of information getting in if that was a stable situation? Why is there a steady stream of defectors from the state (even under the threat of extreme violence)? Why is it illegal to collectively organize labor in North Korea? Isn’t that a foundational principle of Marxism? How can the workers advocate for their own rights if the only arm to do so is controlled by the violent regime, with incentives that are at odds?
The economic strarification in the DPRK is among the lowest in the world. The DPRK is not a wealthy country, nor is the Kim family excessively wealthy. They have privledges above and beyond the average person, no doubt, but the function of the DPRK’s economy fundamentally cannot reach the same levels of stratification that capitalist economies do. The DPRK is not really a market economy, it doesn’t really engage in traditional commodity production outside of Rason and other areas, and because of that rhere aren’t these extreme profits to give to the Kim family even if they wanted to.
You also keep repeating the idea that there’s very little democratic input, but that just isn’t the case. The system requires worker input to function, it isn’t a capitalist economy that can rely on markets to sort distribution. There’s money, for sure, and some limited private property, but fundamentally the system cannot exist without those running society being able to have a say. The Kim family couldn’t possibly run everything by themselves even if they wanted to. Labor is collectively organized, society-wide.
As far as control of information is concerned, that’s a very standard measure proposed by Marx in the manifesto itself, it’s very easy for outside influences to overwhelm the information sphere for their own gain. The US has been known to do that, especially with tools like Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Asia, etc. Defectors were far more common in the past, during the Arduous March when the Soviet Union dissolved and natural disasters led to famine. There are even defectors that risk their lives going back to the DPRK.
All in all, you seem extremely confident in your view of the DPRK for someone who has done no research whatsoever. If you haven’t, then make it a point to learn. The Black Panther Party were such big fans of the DPRK that after visiting they adopted Juche into their practice. Again, I have my own criticisms, but it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who hasn’t done any research and doesn’t seem to be interested in sources I bring to the table either.
Kim is the leader of the regime. Your argument sounds like capitalists who say “billionaires aren’t that wealthy, since their assets aren’t liquid.” Economic control is worth a hell of a lot more than currency.
You say that there is little economic stratification, but where were the deaths occuring during the famines of the 90s? How many of the Kims succumbed to starvation?
Yes, the US controls information and puts out propaganda as an imperialist regime. Controlling information is still a means of oppression, even when done by North Korea.
And again, the labor is “organized” by the regime. It’s shocking to me that you find this controversial. This arrangement would be akin to having a union managed by HR in a capitalist structure: a cover to control labor.
The website of the Korean Friendship Association states that “(The GFTUK) conducts ideological education to ensure its members fully understand the Juche idea and gets them to take part in socialist construction and the management of the socialist economy with the attitude befitting masters. It has its organizations in different branches of industry.” However, the North Korea Handbook states that the GFTUK is not designed to serve its members but the WPK. GFTUK is directly controlled by the Central Committee of the WPK.
Are you saying that the Kim regime doesn’t control the WPK?
Kim Jong-Un is the head of the WPK, the main (but not only) political party in the DPRK. If my argument sounds like “billionaires aren’t wealthy because they don’t have much liquid,” then you need to study Marxist economics more. Kim Jong-Un isn’t performing an M-C…P…C’-M’ circuit, production in the DPRK isn’t funneled to him. They have a planned economy.
Secondly, most of the starvation happened in the rural areas, which were even more underdeveloped. One of Kim Jong-Un’s major campaign goals is to bring the rural development more in line with the urban development. Social stratification exists in all socialist states, the USSR for example had a difference of about 10 times from the top to the bottom on average, but in capitalist systems this number is in the hundreds to millions to even billions. Equality is not the goal of Marxism, satisfying the needs of everyone and planning production more coherently is the goal.
As for labor organizing, yes, it’s done by the WPK. Marxism has no basis in pushing for labor organizing outside the state, in a centrally planned economy this kind of organization leads to some areas having undue privledge. This was found early on in the USSR, that’s why the Soviet system took over the factory committee style that was more localized and worked against the broader planned economy.
Again, I have my criticisms, but the DPRK should he able to chart their own course. I think you should read up on Marxism a bit more, without a firm analysis of capitalism it can be difficult to understand why public ownership and planning is so different from private ownership and markets. Not saying you need to read Capital yet, but just some good research at first.
It’s evident to me that this is not the case so long as the Kim regime is in charge.
My biggest disagreement is that we don’t really know what kind of wealth the regime controls; they aren’t exactly forthcoming with that information. From the outside though, they resemble the economic distribution of many other dictatorships propped up as client states by empires.
This was a pleasant conversation though; a nice break from telling fascists to get fucked.
I think you should use this as an opportunity to get to learn the political structure of the DPRK a bit more. The Kims are beloved, but not all-powerful, the WPK isn’t even the only party in government, but a coalition.
Good question! I’m not really sure the difference really matters. The leaders in a socialist or anarchist system are provisional and only serve at the pleasure of those they represent. This is in stark contrast to the NK system, where the lower classes have absolutely no say in their representation and next to no say in the economic sphere. How is this an improvement over even liberal capitalism?
Another point that I largely agree with! The state is a means of consolidating power through all three avenues of control: sovereignty (exclusive use of force), secrecy (control of information), and charismatic competition for power (like the NK military). My issue is that North Korea is doing absolutely nothing to eliminate class distinctions; on the contrary, they use incredibly oppressive rule to prevent the lower classes from achieving anything approaching political or economic power.
An anarchistic society has managers, administrators, and voluntary hierarchy. It is about removing the means of oppression; it is a misconception that anarchism is against hierarchy in general (another point of agreement).
But this is all largely irrelevant to my larger point: what actually makes North Korea “leftist?” The oppressive state control, the violent oppression of the lower classes in favor of a ruling elite, the restriction of basic personal and economic freedoms, the intense control of information, control of movement, and oppressive violence are, again, what we would expect from a far-right dictatorship.
So again, what is actually leftist about North Korea? Even based in Marxism? Because a highly economically stratified society is not based on any definition of “leftist” I’ve ever heard. It looks like a right-wing dictatorship with a coat of red paint to me.
Who owns the means of production in North Korea? It sure doesn’t look like the workers to me.
There are a large number of claims you’ve made here with no sources. Where are you getting your information from?
First, property is near entirely state-owned. There are very controlled and minor elements of private property, like the Rason Special Economic Zone, but production is handled at the state level. The state isn’t a class, and neither are administrators, but extensions of class. Saying “lower classes” doesn’t really make any sense, here. There’s also a good deal of collective decision making in the economy, since it’s a centralized economy and everyone is pretty much a worker in the same system, this is a necessary implement for the economy to function.
Again, I’m not sure you know what a class is. A class is a social relation to production. The only way to eliminate class is to collectivize all of production, globally, and the DPRK has a very collectivized economy. There are criticisms to be made of its economy, but certainly not along the ideas of class.
The DPRK is leftist because it has a collectivized, socialist economy. That doesn’t mean it’s a utopia, but on the other hand the people actually do support their system, because they are doing well when contextualizing the extreme violence they face through brutal sanctions and recovering from genocide at the hands of the US. There aren’t “lower classes” and “higher classes,” but stratification in society due to different roles in the collectivized system (outside areas like Rason, which have private property and engage in foreign trade). Far-right regimes rely on bourgeois property and systems run for the purpose of the profit motive, but the DPRK’s system is a centralized economy run for fulfilling needs.
The means of production are publicly owned.
Overall, I really think you need to do more research on the DPRK. I have my own criticisms with it, but ultimately they aren’t an imperialist nation and are supportive of their system. It’s up to them to chart their own course. My hope is that one day the ROK and DPRK can normalize relations, and the entire Korean people can be unified once more, progressing hand in hand to a better future. The fact that the US millitary illegalized the popularly supported pan-Korean state and split it in two against the will of the Korean people is a tragedy time hasn’t healed yet.
I never said they were an imperialist system, just that the extreme economic stratification is counter to their claims to be a leftist country.
I also never claimed that the US didn’t devastate that region.
I also never said that property was not state owned; my point was that the state exists to serve the Kim regime. You can clearly see how wealth and privilege are tied to loyalty to the regime. Like I said: workers have some economic freedom, but only so far as the regime allows. While the workers “own” the means on paper, they have very little say in the economic distribution of said production. In effect, the Kim regime owns the means of production.
You’re making a claim that the North Koreans are happy with their situation, but like I said information is highly controlled there. Why is the regime so afraid of information getting in if that was a stable situation? Why is there a steady stream of defectors from the state (even under the threat of extreme violence)? Why is it illegal to collectively organize labor in North Korea? Isn’t that a foundational principle of Marxism? How can the workers advocate for their own rights if the only arm to do so is controlled by the violent regime, with incentives that are at odds?
The economic strarification in the DPRK is among the lowest in the world. The DPRK is not a wealthy country, nor is the Kim family excessively wealthy. They have privledges above and beyond the average person, no doubt, but the function of the DPRK’s economy fundamentally cannot reach the same levels of stratification that capitalist economies do. The DPRK is not really a market economy, it doesn’t really engage in traditional commodity production outside of Rason and other areas, and because of that rhere aren’t these extreme profits to give to the Kim family even if they wanted to.
You also keep repeating the idea that there’s very little democratic input, but that just isn’t the case. The system requires worker input to function, it isn’t a capitalist economy that can rely on markets to sort distribution. There’s money, for sure, and some limited private property, but fundamentally the system cannot exist without those running society being able to have a say. The Kim family couldn’t possibly run everything by themselves even if they wanted to. Labor is collectively organized, society-wide.
As far as control of information is concerned, that’s a very standard measure proposed by Marx in the manifesto itself, it’s very easy for outside influences to overwhelm the information sphere for their own gain. The US has been known to do that, especially with tools like Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Asia, etc. Defectors were far more common in the past, during the Arduous March when the Soviet Union dissolved and natural disasters led to famine. There are even defectors that risk their lives going back to the DPRK.
All in all, you seem extremely confident in your view of the DPRK for someone who has done no research whatsoever. If you haven’t, then make it a point to learn. The Black Panther Party were such big fans of the DPRK that after visiting they adopted Juche into their practice. Again, I have my own criticisms, but it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who hasn’t done any research and doesn’t seem to be interested in sources I bring to the table either.
Kim is the leader of the regime. Your argument sounds like capitalists who say “billionaires aren’t that wealthy, since their assets aren’t liquid.” Economic control is worth a hell of a lot more than currency.
You say that there is little economic stratification, but where were the deaths occuring during the famines of the 90s? How many of the Kims succumbed to starvation?
Yes, the US controls information and puts out propaganda as an imperialist regime. Controlling information is still a means of oppression, even when done by North Korea.
And again, the labor is “organized” by the regime. It’s shocking to me that you find this controversial. This arrangement would be akin to having a union managed by HR in a capitalist structure: a cover to control labor.
Are you saying that the Kim regime doesn’t control the WPK?
Kim Jong-Un is the head of the WPK, the main (but not only) political party in the DPRK. If my argument sounds like “billionaires aren’t wealthy because they don’t have much liquid,” then you need to study Marxist economics more. Kim Jong-Un isn’t performing an M-C…P…C’-M’ circuit, production in the DPRK isn’t funneled to him. They have a planned economy.
Secondly, most of the starvation happened in the rural areas, which were even more underdeveloped. One of Kim Jong-Un’s major campaign goals is to bring the rural development more in line with the urban development. Social stratification exists in all socialist states, the USSR for example had a difference of about 10 times from the top to the bottom on average, but in capitalist systems this number is in the hundreds to millions to even billions. Equality is not the goal of Marxism, satisfying the needs of everyone and planning production more coherently is the goal.
As for labor organizing, yes, it’s done by the WPK. Marxism has no basis in pushing for labor organizing outside the state, in a centrally planned economy this kind of organization leads to some areas having undue privledge. This was found early on in the USSR, that’s why the Soviet system took over the factory committee style that was more localized and worked against the broader planned economy.
Again, I have my criticisms, but the DPRK should he able to chart their own course. I think you should read up on Marxism a bit more, without a firm analysis of capitalism it can be difficult to understand why public ownership and planning is so different from private ownership and markets. Not saying you need to read Capital yet, but just some good research at first.
I largely agree with this.
My biggest point of agreement is that:
It’s evident to me that this is not the case so long as the Kim regime is in charge.
My biggest disagreement is that we don’t really know what kind of wealth the regime controls; they aren’t exactly forthcoming with that information. From the outside though, they resemble the economic distribution of many other dictatorships propped up as client states by empires.
This was a pleasant conversation though; a nice break from telling fascists to get fucked.
I think you should use this as an opportunity to get to learn the political structure of the DPRK a bit more. The Kims are beloved, but not all-powerful, the WPK isn’t even the only party in government, but a coalition.
But, take care!