So it’s almost the end of 2024 and many of us are still in the “New Atheist Movement” mindset (not dissing on atheism, just the movement).
I was in a conversation with someone recently and it made me think of the title question. We had an adventure in philosophy. The person said they were from Pitcairn, as in the country known as Pitcairn, the one with only fifty people living in it. I naturally responded with “uhhh yeah that’s going to be a big pill to swallow.”
“Where are you from” the person asked?
“I’m from so-and-so.”
“Oh, that one village in the Southern US with only forty citizens? I’m going to take a while to register that.”
“But you said you were from an island.”
“Literally the only difference between where you’re from and where I’m from is it’s surrounded by water. Does the water affect the odds?”
The message she was getting across seemed clear. “Proof” is relative.
At another point, we spoke about religion.
“Can you prove Jesus existed?”
“No. Can you prove Genghis Khan existed?”
“No, but Jesus made some high claims.”
“And look at what people said about Genghis Khan who was said to conquer a whole continent.”
At one point, we spoke about God.
“Can you prove God exists?”
“Well… have you ever heard of the church of Google? Is it impossible for something to be considered a true god? Are some things not based on proof but rather criteria?”
“So basically you’re saying anything can be a god if you try hard enough?”
We also spoke of dating at one point.
“You got these guys who say ‘pics or it didn’t happen’ but here I am, belonging to a subgroup of humanity that consists of approximately fifty percent of the population if not more, and suddenly I’m held in suspicion because the demographic of the specific community I was in had my subgroup of humanity slightly outnumbered, yet you can say you have something rare like ELS syndrome and people take your word. Go to Lemmy and ask what separates a claim that calls for proof from a claim more fitting in peoples’ minds to take their word for it.”
“Maybe don’t make claims then.”
“Why not? On the world’s largest source of knowledge I can’t make descriptors?”
“I tend to think peoples’ definitions of claims-that-need-proof to be subjective.”
“Hence why you should ask. But… does each individual have a consistent sense of it? Can they describe in words why claim A can be taken in their mind as is while claim B requires proof? And while some will say it’s a matter of knowing someone and trusting them, if someone came running through Walmart saying ‘run for your lives, there’s a bad entity on the loose’, I’m sure people would panic even though they have no proof of anything.”
So I’m asking you. What separates them?
That title is word salad, but if I’m reading everything in the text right, it looks like you’re asking when proof is expected to be provided when asked for.
It could be you’re asking when we would ask for proof before considering the other person to be acting in good faith.
It doesn’t matter much which one it is, since the answer from my end is essentially the same thing, but if it isn’t one of those, my response might be different, and thus make this comment off topic unintentionally.
For me, the tipping point is more about a combination of claims and import. The less important it is, the more unbelievable the claims can be before I call shenanigans and want proof if I’m going to continue interacting with someone.
The inverse is true as well. A very important subject, and the less incredible the claims can be before I nope out without proof.
The key is that it’s about the time I’m willing to spend entertaining a discussion.
If I’m confident enough that the person is full of shit, I’m not engaging at all, unless what they’re saying could fuck up someone else’s life in some way. If that’s the case, I don’t engage, but I’ll provide whatever information I have and nope out.
In your example, the claim to be from a low population location is so low importance that IDGAF. The only time that would matter to me is if they’re making claims of authority because of it. Even then, as long as what they’re claiming is consistent with fact that can be looked up, I ain’t got the time to try and pry them out of their story.
There’s also a limit to what kind of proof is acceptable to ask for. Which doesn’t apply to your example, what with them claiming a specific location, but in general, nobody has to dox themselves to satisfy me, so I’ll disengage if I really believe they’re full of shit rather than go there.
I’ll never ask someone for a picture of themselves or any identifying features. It just isn’t acceptable to ask for.
See, there’s a bit of leeway necessary for a semi-anonymous forum to function. You assume the best until something stops that possibility. In the example you gave, one of you brought up “els syndrome” (which isn’t something I’m aware of, and it didn’t come up with a description or other information on a quick search)
If someone is making claims to have a medical condition, and the conversation doesn’t veer into claims of medical fact, I’m perfectly willing to accept their experiences as lived and not care if that matches with other people’s lived experiences. It just doesn’t matter on a partially anonymous forum. It’s the same kind of suspension of disbelief that’s necessary to take anyone’s story at face value. Until and unless their personal experience reaches something known to be false, it isn’t something that matters for having a nice conversation.
If they start claiming that drinking apple cider vinegar cured their AIDS, we got a problem. That’s where things start getting dangerous to others that nighty come along later.
Are those examples enough to get my viewpoint? I don’t wanna belabor the point if it’s clear enough.
Why does it matter at all? Well, there has to be a balance between healthy skepticism and giving people room to express themselves. We should all, always carry a kernel of doubt with us regarding any claims. But we also should always “remember the human”. None of it will achieve both of those perfectly, but that’s the goal.
If the other person is lying out their ass, does it matter? Does the interaction lose value because they’re making things up? I say it doesn’t inherently do so. If I interact with this post of yours, but it turns out you made it all up, it doesn’t devalue the interaction for either of us.
So the balance of this thread is about people expressing something that’s largely internal. If you felt the need to fake the posted conversation snippets, it still expressed something true in you, regardless of objective reality. We, as people, can still have valuable interaction over fiction. You making it up would not have any impact on the value I have/get in my response.
Your examples don’t meet the criteria for proof in my mind. You had what looks to be an interesting conversation with someone. That’s the primary thing, imo. Was the human interaction worth the time put in?
It was too complex a concept to ask in simpler words.
How do you determine when to call for proof or not?
It could have “during a discussion” at the end, with or without “online” as further clarification
I kinda assumed that it was either a language/translation issue, or trying to find the best way to express it due to some other difficulty.
Not that it matters really, but it does mean that it’s difficult to be certain we’re answering the right question