• manuallybreathing@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    21 hours ago

    I saw this on twitter, chinese comrades are on another level in terms of posting, probably just survivorship bias tho

      • causepix@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        ·
        15 hours ago

        Also the tank is very clearly leaving the square in that video, if you’ve seen any imagery of the area it’s immediately recognizable. (Besides that; it also doesn’t make sense that the street is so clear, that close to the square, because the military did encounter serious resistance going in. I wonder why we don’t see that imagery floating around 🤔)

        He’s not standing in the way of them to protest the intervention before it started, he’s demanding that the tanks turn around and remain present in the square some time after everything that had occurred.

      • Spice Hoarder@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        20 hours ago

        Maybe we need to go back to calling them massacres. “The Portland Massacre, and the Minneapolis Massacre”

      • Diurnambu1e [none/use name]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        13 hours ago

        That the trouble with meeting people from other side of the world we didn’t get the same propaganda. I Europe I didn’t got the tianamen thing. Too young I guess but not surprising when you see the Bush thingy. I discovered it on reddit and got the US version. I got the other side version from Lemmy. No state is clean in Europe too. I am not surprised about the lie. You will smile, for long where I grow up their was reputation that Asian were smart and american obese. And that in a small lost city.

  • rozlav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    14
    arrow-down
    48
    ·
    1 day ago

    This comparison is stupid, I really really don’t support US government at all, and China even worse : they have some serious problems too, let’s just think about Uyghur and muslim people or what happened with Tibet just as little examples of people being killed or tortured, you can also get persecuted for practising a form qi jong (Falun Gong) seriously this needs to be posted :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China?wprov=sfla1

    I’m really hoping everything’s gonna be better as soon as possible for both people of US and China

    • Twongo [she/her]@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      24
      ·
      edit-2
      18 hours ago

      china doesn’t crack down hard enough on falun gong. it’s a “cult” that solicits money from the us government for bullshit projects like a piece of software that supposedly enabled journalists in repressive countries to exchange information - after years of development and millions of dollars down the drain nobody actually used it. they have ties to the white house and propagandist steve bannon.

      if that’s not fishy idk what is.

      EDIT: i forgot to mention that the propaganda newspaper Epoch Times is owned by them. Put two and two together and you realize they are US funded agitators and propagandists.

    • تحريرها كلها ممكن@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      32
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      22 hours ago

      even worse

      brainwashing successful. US cops can kill people and you feel convinced that China is even worse. Just compare the response to the George Floyd Protests and the Hong Kong Riots. Which one was more violent and resulted in more deaths, yet somehow China is even worse.

      let’s just think about Uyghur and muslim people or what happened with Tibet just as little examples of people being killed or tortured

      compare that with what happened to the indigenous peoples of North America in a significantly shorter amount of time. China’s current borders goes back centuries, and the indigenous peoples still have maintained their languages and cultures. Tibet has been part of China longer than Ohio has been part of the US.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      40
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      23 hours ago

      China is in no way worse than the US.

      Uyghurs

      Uyghurs are not being tortured and killed.

      The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.

      I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.

      Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time, yes. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.

      Tibet

      Tibet was a feudal slave society backed by the CIA. The PLA liberated Tibet.

      Two excerpts from Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth:

      Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [12]

      Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. [13] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [14] In fact it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.

      Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeatedremoved, beginning at age nine. [15] The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.

      In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [16] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care. They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land — or the monastery’s land — without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. [17] Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. [18]

      As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.

      One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.” [19] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed. [20]

      The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery. [21]

      The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.

      Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)

      The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation — including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation — were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. [22]

      Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.” [23] Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. [24]

      In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who wasremovedd and then had her nose sliced away. [25]

      Earlier visitors to Tibet commented on the theocratic despotism. In 1895, an Englishman, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the populace was under the “intolerable tyranny of monks” and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lama’s rule as “an engine of oppression.” At about that time, another English traveler, Captain W. F. T. O’Connor, observed that “the great landowners and the priests… exercise each in their own dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal,” while the people are “oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and priest-craft.” Tibetan rulers “invented degrading legends and stimulated a spirit of superstition” among the common people. In 1937, another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, “The Lamaist monk does not spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them. […] The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to increase their influence and wealth.” [26] As much as we might wish otherwise, feudal theocratic Tibet was a far cry from the romanticized Shangri-La so enthusiastically nurtured by Buddhism’s western proselytes.

      -Dr. Michael Parenti

      Falun Gong

      A far-right cult? That’s what you uphold? They’re funded by the CIA to undermine China.

      The US Empire

      The US Empire far outweighs China. It’s a settler-colonial empire that plunders the global south for wealth through imperialism and unequal exchange, is committing genocide in Palestine, just kidnapped a democratically elected president for daring to keep oil nationalized, and has a widespread police violence problem resulting in regular murders of innocents. China has nothing to compare to this.

      • manuallybreathing@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        18
        ·
        20 hours ago

        It’s so annoying that it’s so easy to access this information, and I still see so many tibetian flags when I go to a protest, until like last week there were more tibiant flags than Venezuelan flags

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            13
            ·
            19 hours ago

            I suspect there’s also an aspect of chauvinism here at play. If people already have a predisposition to see themselves as superior, then these kinds of stories feed into what they already want to believe.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              10
              ·
              19 hours ago

              Yep! The western exceptionalist mindset comes first, then they license themselves to believe that that which supports them is “good,” and then absorb “other thing bad” through osmosis. They all are required, which is why breaking any of these legs tends to radicalize people.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      20
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      19 hours ago

      The protestors on Tiananmen Square were dispersed peacefully after a full month of protest, you’re thinking of the rioters around Beijing that started lynching and firebombing the PLA, including unarmed officers.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          11 hours ago

          Did you actually read the article you linked? It backs up that dispersal of the square was relatively peaceful. This isn’t even getting into conflicting sources, such as leaked cables backing up what I said, your source just doesn’t agree with you. Here’s what Wikipedia, horribly biased as it is, has to say:

          Troops from the west arrived at the square at about 1:30 am, and troops from other directions gradually arrived as well, blocking main roads to the square to prevent entry.[198] A second emergency announcement from the government was broadcast on loudspeakers:

          A severe counterrevolutionary riot has broken out in the capital tonight. Rioters have savagely attacked soldiers of the PLA, have stolen their weapons and burned their vehicles, have erected roadblocks, and have kidnapped officers and soldiers […] Citizens and students must evacuate the Square immediately so that martial law troops can successfully carry out their mission. We cannot guarantee the safety of violators, who will be solely responsible for any consequences.

          — Emergency Announcement, Beijing Municipal Government and Martial Law Command[199]

          After the announcement, most people in the square began to leave, and by 2:00 am, there were only a few thousand demonstrators in the square.[199] North of the square, a dozen students and citizens attempted to torch army trucks with cans of gasoline but were arrested.[199]

          At 3:00 am, Hou Dejian, Liu Xiaobo, Zhou Duo, and Gao Xin decided to convince the students to evacuate the square; Chai Ling, however, insisted that “those who wish to leave may leave, and those who don’t may stay.”[200] The group asked Chai Ling and other student leaders to negotiate a peaceful evacuation. Hou Dejian addressed the students by loudspeaker, urging them to leave the square and surrender their rifles and other weapons, before leaving with Zhou Duo in an ambulance to meet the government troops.[198][200]

          Between 3:30 and 3:45 am, the ambulance arrived at the Museum of Chinese History in the northeast corner of the square, and Hou Dejian and Zhou Duo met with Ji Xinguo, a regimental political commissar.[198][200] They requested that the army give them time to evacuate, and to open a path for them to leave. Ji Xinguo relayed their request to Martial Law Headquarters, who agreed to the students’ request.[198][200] Ji Xinguo informed them of this and told them to exit to the south. After Hou and Zhou returned to the square, they called for an immediate evacuation, and the Martial Law Headquarters announced, “Students, we appreciate that you will leave the Square voluntarily. Students, please leave in the southeastern direction.”[201]

          There was initial reluctance among the students to leave, but as the deadline approached, Feng Congde asked students for a voice vote on whether to stay or leave.[201] Although the vote’s results were inconclusive, Feng said the vote to leave was louder.[201] The demonstrators began to evacuate, with students leaving under their school banners, heading southeast.[200][182] At about 4:35 am, a few minutes after the demonstrators started to retreat, the lights in the square were turned on, and troops began to advance. A squad of commandos charged up the monument and shot out the students’ loudspeaker.[202][201] According to Hou Dejian, tear gas was used during the operation to clear the square.[203]

          At 5:23 am, a Chinese unit crushed the Goddess of Democracy statue, removing its severed torch first as a memento.[204]

          Having removed the students from the square, soldiers were ordered to relinquish their ammunition, after which they were allowed a short reprieve, from 7 am to 9 am.[205] The debris left over from the student occupation was either piled and burnt on the square or placed in large plastic bags that were then airlifted away by military helicopters.[206][207] After the cleanup, the troops stationed at The Great Hall of the People remained confined within for the next nine days. During this time, the soldiers were apparently left to sleep on the floors and were daily supplied a single packet of instant noodles shared between three men.[208]

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      44
      ·
      1 day ago

      Image if the US required you to go back four decades to find an example of them killing people.

      • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        edit-2
        16 hours ago

        they really cling to that example from almost 40 years ago meanwhile ICE just executes people daily.

        • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          19
          ·
          21 hours ago

          What do you mean? I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not ignorant enough to be claiming there haven’t been protests in China for four decades

        • folaht@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          13
          ·
          edit-2
          22 hours ago

          The Chinese protesters hanged and burned unarmed military police who were ordered to sing them out of the of the square like pied pipers, which worked as they did so even during the insurrection.
          They had no intention to kidnapping or murdering anyone and came in unarmed, until over a hundred military men had been burned to death on “the tank man street”.
          The Chinese military police shot and killed all the terrorists and evacuated the peaceful protesters.

          What the Chinese government can be faulted for was that they did the same Biden Jan 6th order to send in the military with the same instructions:
          Show up on “Capitol Hill and surroundings / Tianenmen Square” in time or be tried for treason.
          Use force on people blocking your way.

          For Jan 6th 2020 insurrection this resulted into 0 protesters dead as everyone fled the moment they heard of the US military coming.
          For the June 4th 1989 insurrection it turned to over a 100 protesters dead as they were protesting far from the “tank man street” or even the square and did not believe that there even was an insurrection going on. Most of these deaths were caused by a single incident where the military and protesters were quarreling on who had the priority on taking public transportation.