Democrats? Left? Lmao XD
Fr how do these people think its “left”?!
The only divide on the left right now is the the traitorous assholes - none of whom are up for reelection - who voted to end of the shutdown. Fuck you Dick Durbin. If I had you in a room for 5 minutes with a megaphone I would definitely so hard that your ancestors would be able to hear it.
Imagine a beach of infinite length with one lemonade stand on it.
Where do you open a second lemonade stand to maximize sales if people will buy from the closet stand?
The answer: next to the first stand. Everyone to the left of your stand will find you are the best option and everyone to the right will choose the other.
This model explains why two political parties along a spectrum can end up not too different from each other in an attempt to capture the most votes.
Weird how the republicans never use this logic to add dem policy, but democrats always use this logic to duplicate republican policy and messaging, and then eat shit in elections because betraying your base to do what the opposition wants is the best way to decrease turnout.
I’m wondering when the rest of you guys are going to realize that electoralism is a huge waste of time, effort and energy. Elections are a distraction to make us think we can effect change through the system. But the problem IS the system. There is only one way forward, and it’s through a revolution that abolishes the entire existing structures of power.
We need to accept this reality, so we can actually start the long process of how to achieve that.
I want to believe that things can be changed electorally, but I know that it wouldn’t come from anyone near power currently. Mamdani is the greatest hope right now, but he’s ultimately going to be in an ivory tower. He’s also been very clear that he’s being elected to run the ivory tower of America, so I’m not downplaying neither the significance or his awareness of the role.
There’s no argument that Republicans have found a number of large exploits in the system that they are currently manipulating to “win” the US federal government. Whether or not such a system is theoretically capable of being repaired is up for debate, but it sure as hell isn’t going to happen at the hands of fucking Democrats.
I remember when
ObamaAOCwas the hope
I think you’re correct. But if so, that means a lot of people are going to die and even after they die, we have no guarantee that the next power structure will be any better.
Socialist states have had a great track record in improving living conditions as compared to previous systems.
Yes, absolutely.
My fear is whether Americans will choose socialism right now. I’m in a very queer, anarchist bubble and I’m not sure how to tell how popular this sort of thought is.
My concern is how thoroughly Americans have rooted socialists out of power and how all of our media will insist that we need more fascism, not less.
As the spoils of imperialism dry up, conditions are getting worse in the States. The task of socialists is to organize, so that revolution can be steered in a positive, unified direction if it comes to pass. We cannot vote for socialism without capital using the state to crush that movement, but we can learn from successful revolutionaries and modify what worked for them to suit our conditions.
The death toll of capitalism is much, much higher than any of us can imagine. We should aim to have the most peaceful revolution possible, but we also should be realistic, and I know for a fact that the ruling class aren’t going to go without a fight. We can starve them out, I believe, for the most part, but yeah, there will definitely be death and suffering, I can’t deny that. But a lot of people are dying NOW. And for nothing. We can at least die trying to make a better world. That’s something I’m willing to die for.
Politics today:
-Far Left pretending they are normal Left wing, and everyone else are dumb fascists.
-Far Right pretending they are normal Right wing, and everyone else are woke communists.
You forgot:
-Centrists pretending they see through everyone by just picking the centerpoint on an arbitrary axis, without actually considering which side is actually correct
The “left” in the United States is much further right on the global median. The Democrats are barely a center-left party on the global political spectrum.
Traditionally, at least since the Reagan Coalition was formed, the Democrats have functioned as a Republican-regulation party, the safety valve of rightwing ideas. The Republicans have put all of their chips on the Reagan Coalition, which they know is a tent with limited accommodations for the non-white non-rightwing. Both of these strategies have weaknesses that we can see cracking open in real time.
The Democrats, by comparison, are a much bigger tent of a party, and regional pressures and interests make it much harder for them to break the mold. There are still Democrats that identify as “conservative,” if you can believe that, and a substantial amount of them, too. There used to be “liberal Republicans,” but that number has dwindled into near-zero %.
I’m not in any way forgiving these dissenting senators for destroying what little health care Americans have. If there were any time in history where any one senator could choose to go rogue and still get re-elected, it’s now.
Going by the recent bullshit in today’s senate, they are right-lite
Charles Schumer makes policy decisions based on an imaginary Republican family.
Democrats have been basically Republicans since the Clinton administration.
Democrats are controlled opposition, which the belief is solidified by the recent senate vote. I’ll still vote blue, but if the politician option of it being a coward/establishment then I might as well vote for a rat. Absolute disgusted our elected leaders have no spine as Republicans continue on their quest to achieve fascism and white supremacy.
Fuck those 6 and fuck Schumer.
So why vote blue?
I’ll still vote blue, but if the politician option of it being a coward/establishment then I might as well vote for a rat.
why not vote for 3rd party instead of wasting your vote like this?
When did America decide to remove first past the post? Oh they didn’t …so how is 3rd party not a wasted vote?
not only is it possible, but it has happened and is currently happening in our lifetimes: either read a non-western history book to see several historical examples of political duopolies being overturned by 3rd parties (until the americans reversed it) or look for modern sources showing a 3rd party named morena overthrow its american backed duopoloy in mexico less than 10 years ago.
The republicans have a strong enough, brainwashed base that will vote for them come hell or high water. Around 35% of people who will vote are seriously engaged on their side and will do whatever they need to vote for them. That’s a pretty strong hurdle to overcome
The democrats also have a contingent of Better Blue than Red and will vote for them no matter what.
The largest party next in line would be the Green party, and honestly, they’re barely trying. I mean the head of the party has investments in Fossil Fuel companies supporting fracking. AOC rightfully critisized them for a lack of organiztional development. It’s just this mess of funding going in and our for visibility and the dilution of the “not republican” vote.
So voting for a third party, at best, lets the republicans continue their destruction of the country and sends a message to the democrats that we’re tired of their crap, which has happened twice now with zero changes.
If you want us to vote for 3rd party, you need to deliver us a 3rd party with enough leadership to campaign and win it.
For nationwide elections I agree there isn’t much of a choice, but I’d argue voting third party outside of swing states is still good to express dissatisfaction, and third parties and independents can still win in local elections.
but I’d argue voting third party outside of swing states
absolutely, and i’m a fan of this, let’s get congress full of third, as long as it’s not libretarian third :)
So voting for a third party, at best, lets the republicans continue their destruction of the country and sends a message to the democrats that we’re tired of their crap, which has happened twice now with zero changes
the democrats and republicans are 2 extremes of this same pro-late stage capitalist status quo system so expecting anything to change by vacillating between them is an unrealistic non-starter.
s are 2 extremes of this same pro-late stage capitalist status quo system so expecting anything to change by vacillating between them is an unrealistic non-starter.
I don’t disagree, but voting for a 3rd in a tw- party race will also be a useless non-starter.
history has given us several examples of this happening; with mexico being the most recent one and in our lifetimes.
those examples prove over and over again that it’s the self-reinforcing propaganda that keeps us back, not two-party; spoiler-vote; fptp; electoral-college; etc. nonsense.
Because the system currently only supports 2 parties for president. We would need current politicians to be selfless enough to make the necessary changes that would allow for a 3rd party to receive enough funding and media coverage for the vast majority of the American voters - who pay no attention at all to politics - to hear about them. Our politicians only work for themselves, and have no reason to work against their own interests by introducing a 3rd party - hell, they’ve almost condensed down to a single party, but at least one side of it is still keeping up appearances enough to only terrorize its people a little bit so that they can say they’re better than the other guys.
Presidential voting is just trying to use the system to change the system, which only works when the system itself works. The current system is broken to the point that presidential voting won’t fix it - the best we can do is make sure the lesser of the evils wins until we can garner enough support for an actual overthrowing of the system, then begin the work to make one that would allow for politicians that actually care about us. A presidential vote to make actual change is a wasted vote, because a vote no longer holds that much power in America. The best it can do on its own is hold back the greater evil.
For local elections you should absolutely vote for the most progressive person you can, because the voters that don’t pay attention don’t even show up to those votes, making them much more volatile to the point where a true leftist can win. Maybe we’d even be able to get a new generation of politicians to change the system from the ground up over the course of several decades, if the country lasts that long. But the presidential election is far too padded by people who would vote for their party’s candidate even if they killed their own mother - it can’t suddenly change, not in its current state.
You cant build popular support for dismantling the system as it is while you’re actively advocating for people to accept the lesser evil.
Imagine if Sanders got up on the senate floor and said “i believe we cannot compromise on ACA subsidies and let millions of americans lose health coverage, be forced to ration their insulin or die because they cant afford a doctor, but I’ll be voting to reopen the government without them anyway because i have no choice”.
Democrats rely on the inherent violence of a 2 party system. Playing into it isnt pragmatic, it’s denial. Either we’re in this together or we aren’t, and democrats have made it perfectly clear that they aren’t.
You can’t build shit for shit, when you’re being actively hunted by ICE for thought crimes, and like third of the Americans don’t know where their next meal will come from.
In order to build something you need to have a foundation, which you can’t do in a crisis. Democratic party as it is is not a party that people are exited about, and they need to be changed one way or another, but you can only do that if there is no Republicans actively hunting you for sports, and the way US is setup right now, you can either have one or another. Denying that is actively dangerous, acting as if it’s not the case brings objectively horrifying results.When the fascist boot is coming down on people’s necks is possibly the best time to be building popular resistance
There is nothing that can be improved by majority fighting tooth and nails to survive. What you need is generations of people who know what the better world looks like, and who’s will wasn’t destroyed by absolute power of a fascist boot on the neck. Accelerationism never was a viable idea, it was always a ruse to make less empathetic among the left to fight for the same cause fascists are fighting for.
I’m not advocating for people to accept the lesser evil, I’m asking them to understand that their vote is no longer a form of acceptance - it doesn’t hold enough power for you to use it that way anymore. Your acceptance or rejection of the system comes from your actions outside of the polling place, in the form of protests and what inevitably comes after protests if they’re ignored for long enough.
A vote in the presidential election currently only holds the power to slightly shift the current power between bad and worse. It’s like the trolley problem - there’s no real 3rd track right now, no matter how much we want one. If we start building one now at the local level, maybe there will be one for someone later, but we’ve gotta make our own lever choice without it for now.
I’m not advocating for people to accept the lesser evil, I’m asking them to understand that their vote is no longer a form of acceptance
This is a fun rhetorical trick, but I’m not interested in playing a semantic game over the definition of ‘acceptance’. This:
A vote in the presidential election currently only holds the power to slightly shift the current power between bad and worse
is absolutely advocating for the lesser evil. Fine if you don’t want to call that ‘acceptance’, but what I’m pointing to is not the choice itself, it’s the act of advocating for it to begin with. Spending any amount of energy trying to convey the importance of voting for the moderate wing of fascism is a distraction from the message that both parties pose an existential threat to the working class. If your goal is to build support for radical systemic change, then there should be no ambiguity about what actions are necessary to achieve it. To use your bullshit trolly problem analogy- the ‘two tracks’ forced choice is a distraction from the fact that we need to stop the fucking trolly. Even if we end up pulling that lever in the end, you will never get enough people to get off to help derail it if you keep ensuring them that the worst will be averted even if they chose not to.
You can’t build a popular movement against the democratic coalition while openly admitting that you have no choice but to support them no matter how aligned they are with the fascists. Liberals will continue happily existing in the status quo until it’s made clear to them that their privileged position within it is threatened along with everyone else’s if they choose not to act.
I don’t understand your point. Voting is not a form of protest or revolution - you either overthrow the government, or you don’t; voting is just the thing you do in the meantime to hopefully keep living to eventually overthrow the government. If the system worked, sure, voting would keep it working, but thinking of voting as a way to change the system at this point is like thinking an oil change will fix a broken engine. I vote for the lesser evil not because I accept them or want them to be in charge, but because I know the person I want in charge will never be placed in charge by the current system. I advocate for revolution because I know we need it, and that the system cannot be fixed in my lifetime without it, but voting is an entirely separate thing, and can only be used as a tool to keep the world from falling apart quite as quickly as it would under the greater evil.
presidential elections do seem like a really lofty goal, but history has given us plenty of examples to prove that it’s possible; with mexico being the most recent one with amlo & shienbaum.
i think it’s a testament to the power of american propaganda that a 3rd party candidate won a presidential election in not only one of the largest and most populous countries of the world; but one of the closest possible to the united states and most of americans are still completely unaware that it actually happened and that it happened in our lifetime.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Our media has the vast majority of the voters’ sole attention - they don’t know and don’t care that other options exist. If a presidential candidate doesn’t have equal media coverage to the other 2 parties, they immediately lose more Americans than they would need to win the election.
the media and republican/democrat duopoly are powered by the same source, the american oligarchy; expecting the media to ever give airtime to 3rd party is unrealistic.
it’s self-fulfilling propaganda that we’re inflicting upon ourselves.
Correct, which is why the 3rd part is itself unrealistic. We need to change things from the ground-up at a local level, which will take decades, or overthrow everything and start over, which will lead to a huge amount of deaths regardless of whether or not we even win the battle. Regardless, to win the presidential election with a 3rd party right now, we need the media, and that’s not going to happen, so to put your vote in that hole is the same as not voting.
You mean the two Dems and the independent that acted as scabs and went against the rest of the democratic party?
US Senate advances bill to end federal shutdown
Sunday’s deal was brokered by Democratic Senators Maggie Hassan and Jeanne Shaheen, both from New Hampshire, and Senator Angus King, an independent from Maine, said a person familiar with the talks. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, the chamber’s top Democrat, voted against the measure. Many Democrats on the Hill watched the deal unfold with displeasure.
I meant the 5 fuckwads that gave in to repugs demands
I agree this should be the career ending vote for 8 scabs, but I also think refusing to replace them with better candidates if they also run as dems, won’t do anything other than guarantee the re-election of 8 scabs.
It doesnt matter if they’re democrat or independent - what matters is that they aren’t a class traitor.
Do whatever you want but I sure as fuck wouldnt vote for a democrat who is going to sell me out as soon as acting in my interest is politically inconvenient.
it’s always just one or 2 democrats.
Spineless liberals cant even hold the line much more than one month, in any collation they are the weakest link
So an independent, a dude that essentially went maga after a stroke, and 6 other centrist Democrats making a deal means liberals are “spineless”.
I guess we should all stop voting because both sides are the same right bro?!?!
The cowardice is significantly deeper than those six Democrats, its also with Chuck Schumer and the entire party. Quite frankly if the party had even the semblance of a spine than they would have purged many of these politicans long ago. The party should uphold an absolute basic standard and if we had a real left wing party than it absolutely would.
It’s pretty obvious that without an institution there’s absolutely nothing that will be done to stop the Epstein class. A large enough institution will include some traitors.
“Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend. It can be so, sometimes.”
I’m going to take this opportunity to link this video by Richard Medhurst
This is not infighting, this is the great Un-Masking
I will also take this oppotunity to link this video about Why Leftist Purity Tests are good.
Never stop Purity Testing, Comrades, Never.
I wouldn’t even call it purity testing, they’re just testing. I’ve seen obsession over purity taken to a counterproductive extent, and I maintain that it can be a problem when dealing with a complex unideal reality, but what BadEmpanada is talking about here is fine. That’s a healthy level of testing, and important in preventing recuperation or sanewashing. Democrats are a bourgeois-controlled party and don’t share our class interests.
To give an example of the kind that is counterproductive, I know of a (small) socialist organisation in my country which has been banned from worker strikes after counterprotesting one, insisting that since industrial unions are bureaucratic, the workers should all just boycott the strike and make their own union. This group claims all other socialist organisations are impure and pseudo-leftist whenever they compromise with material reality and present conditions.
And, obviously, that’s a whole other world of purity testing to what you’re talking about. The problems are when it reaches no-true-Scotsman levels.
hmm, so the US citizens trying to get the Democrats to stop aligning with the Republicans should just stop because they’re indistinguishable. Got it.
Look if the Democrats were interested in shifting to the left they would have done it by now. They know progressive policies are popular. They know progressive policies get people excited. They’re not interested in being progressive. They’re only interested in maintaining the status quo and if stepping on you is necessary to do that, they’ll happily do it. Some of them will make a somber face on the news about it before gleefully stepping on you again.
Redditors have no concept of what the democrats are: a controlled opposition party in a one-party capitalist empire.
know progressive policies get people excited. They’re not interested in being progressive. They’re only interested in maintaining the status quo and if stepping on you is necessary to do that, they’ll happily do it. Some of them will make a somber face on
All fine and dandy, but voting 3rd without the 3rd being actually viable is just voting 1st for the other side.
It literally is not.
What makes the third viable is voting for it. But that aside, making the Democrats lose with a clear auditable trail of votes to the left makes it clear they have to move left (and take the third party’s positions) or be destroyed. This is how the party system in the US has always worked, from the Whigs to the FDR coalition. The modern GOP almost did this, but was so sidelined by the FDR coalition and failures of Nixon that their right wing didn’t even have to leave under Reagan to take over.
That’s an idiotic hot take that gives the Democrats in power a lot of undeserved confidence in their seats and is exactly why Kamala failed to excite voters.
In a very small handful of very vulnerable seats, sure, that might be true. For literally every other race in the country, that’s not only bullshit it’s problematic.
“I don’t have to try, x number of people will vote for me no matter what.” That’s not conjecture, it’s literally part of the calculation campaign managers do for every single election. X voters will always vote for D/R candidate, and Y voters never will. If X is greater than half of the number of votes in the last election, campaign to your donors.
Democrats will not change their tune until they start seeing some risk. Safe and leans D seats need to start shifting away from them. They need to lose votes they once thought were guaranteed and a sizable portion of those votes need to be for non viable progressives.
Removed by mod
You are just desperate not to get it aren’t you?
Removed by mod
It’s about as productive as trying to turn a lion vegetarian.
deleted by creator
Oh, yeah this is defo controlled opposition. When people asked for spine, they got jello.
No, the dems are going at their enemies pretty hard.
Agreed. And are simultaneously displaying that the Republicans are their friends.
Not even that distant. They’re the same wealthy pedophile christofascists.
Yes we just sometimes forget we (leftists) are their enemies not the republican party.
“Liberals are the real leftists!!!” - Blue MAGA
Breaking up the banks won’t end sexism, so why bother?
do a flip!
if you gatekeep the left, then no one is left.
Mamdani just won New York. That is good. We should not be critical of his efforts.
Also, his movement is successful in beating the administration. Yours isn’t.
Ciao
Lmao, the left are Marxist and Anarchists
Shillmer can go fuck himself
